Xerox 700 vs. Canon C6000

[jennypie47]

Been stalking but not posting,-finally have something to ask! pardon me if my brain malfunctions while typing and I sound ridiculous

We're a commercial offset printer trying to enter the "digital world". We do a substantial amount of PURLS's which deserve nice VP, and otherwise want to supplement our offset work- either taking smaller jobs off press, handling overflow, securing new work, and/or allowing a costing option.
Additional thoughts are the ability to integrate with Prinergy, EFI Logic, Mindfire and Digital Storefronts.

Right now we are stuck between the Canon C6000 and the Xerox 700 - which really can't be more different when it comes to price.

The Xerox, besides feeling "too cheap" (worried about "the get what you pay for issues") has that lovely glossy sheen of toner on paper while the Canon does not.

So right now while we figure out what we want to sell and which we can sell better- my questions would be more on productivity, reliability, service and RIP issues.

Anyone have any feedback for me to contemplate?

 

[Craig]

Here's my opinion, I'm sure to get flamed.
The Xerox 700 was introduced to compete with the price point of the KM6500. I don't know if it is on the same production level as the Canon ImagePress series.

In my small world a better comparison would be the Xerox 5000AP and the IP 6000.

 

[lkl7255]

Craig is correct when it comes to productivity. The C6000 is more productive on heavier weight stocks, while the Xerox 700 slows down more. So it really depends on the type of media you think you will run the most–The Canon C6000 does slow down on heavier stock, just not as much.

The C6000VP version can run all weights at the rated speed, just like the Xerox DocuColor 5000AP that also runs all weights at rated speed. So those two engines are more on the same level if the majority of your jobs are on coated heavyweight.

As for the RIP, Xerox production printers all offer a choice of workflows, whether it is Creo, EFI, or the FreeFlow Print Server…so there is flexibility that way. If you are running complex VI as well, as you go up in the portfolio the RIP’s gain more processing power, so while the Xerox 700 CAN handle VI, the DocuColor 5000AP can handle a higher level of complexity… and I’m sure the same goes with the C6000.

Service: The Xerox 700 has more customer replaceable parts (like the fuser) than the 5000AP and C6000; but I know for the 5000AP (and I believe Canon now has a similar program for their ImagePresses) there is a Productivity Plus program where operators are trained to do their own maintenance so they aren’t waiting on service.

As you mentioned price is a big difference, but more importantly… what do you anticipate the overall monthly volume to be? That can pinpoint which machine can best handle your workload…

I'd also recommend getting a demo on each of these products if you haven't already, so you can really see the insides.

 

[jennypie47]

How about the sales training

How about the sales training

Thanks. We have demo'ed both and of course both have their good and bad. I agree the Xerox 5000 vs. the Canon 6000 would be a more fair comparison, but we simply aren't looking at the 5000 (mostly because the salesperson said it was to expensive for not enough else, and my bosses agree).
Anyone running either of these that could share the experience with the "sales training" both companies offer as I know that our success with that will ultimately affect the level of machine we invest in. Yes, I do feel the powers that be don't have a firm grasp yet on their expectations and hopefully we'll get there before they sign a contract!

 

[rogue]

Couple things for Jenny

Couple things for Jenny

Are you looking at the Canon C6000 or the C6000VP? The C6000VP maintains its rated speed regardless (60ppm). The C6000 will slow down slightly on some of the heavier stocks. Also, check out identical prints on gloss stocks. The 700 seams to dull out on gloss stocks whereas the Canon really pops out -- resembles offset. I have customers that can't believe I printed their files digitally. Also that 700 still has that 3D look you get from toner.

Additionly, I know a guy with a 5000AP and a C7000VP (same quality as C6000). He loves his Canon and says the 5000AP doesn't come close to the Canon. I'm sure you can find alot of personal examples, but this guy really is sold on the Canon Imagepress. He's showed me samples off both and it's not even close. Both systems are less than a year old and both well maintained by Xerox and Canon.

The 700 is real cheap and a good bargain, but it's no press. If you're a litho house, you have to take that into consideration. Your customers already have an expectation for quality and you don't want to disappoint them.

 

[jennypie47]

The 6000. I don't think speed will be an issue, at least not right away. I think the Canon would be a better fit for us- exactly for what you said, our customers expect the quality. But I have to give darn good reasons to spend mpre than double the $ right out of the gate

 

[JasonM]

Make sure whoever is selling this to you will do prompt service. As with any digital printer they need lots of service. We have a 6000 the color and print quality is good, but that's only part of what you are purchasing. We ran into some snags with service and now have them worked out. There were a few times when we had to find someone to outsource to becasue it was down and parts were on order.

 

[vwrome]

Don't leave the Ricoh ProC900 and C900s out of the picture.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Does anyone know for sure if you can start with a Canon 6000 or 6000VP and write the check later on to get it running as one of the faster units?

 

[Craig]

I don't know for sure but maybe it could happen with a 6000VP to 7000VP since they both require 3 phase power. I don't see it with a 6000 which is single phase. It would be a novel approach modeled after a Kodak Nexpress.

 

[rogue]

Good point

Good point

The 6000. I don't think speed will be an issue, at least not right away. I think the Canon would be a better fit for us- exactly for what you said, our customers expect the quality. But I have to give darn good reasons to spend mpre than double the $ right out of the gate

Dollars are important and obviously you can't get a Lexus for the price of a Kia. But you still have to sell what you print, you have to grow your business or pick up business you may be losing now to digital.

Buyers of digital print also have expectations and most could really care less what you paid to get into the business. Some will be fine with the 700. Others will have higher expectations. I guess it just depends on who you're trying to impress.

 

[Base193]

C6000 vs 5000

C6000 vs 5000

I have had my C6000 Imagepress for about 3 months now. Formerly I had a Xerox 2045. I also, currently have, a Xerox 250 (I've had it for about 2.5 years). I had the Xerox 5000 in on a demo just as the 700 was coming out. The 5000 still had the paper size problem (just slightly smaller) and the fuser oil issue. The Xerox 700 has the larger page size (although slower than the 5000) and the 700 does NOT have fuser oil.
Cannon would not let me demo the C6000, so I had to do a lot of leg work and investigation. Everything that I discovered said that the C6000 was the right machine, but I was still very nervous. After getting the C6000, I am way more than thankful for the decision that I made. Within 2 weeks, I had one of the local sales reps from a large commercial printer come in. I had told him that I had a new digital press that had incredible quality. He had used me on many different jobs before, but he also uses other digital printers, one with an Igen and one with an Indigo. He let me print a test page that he gives all his digital printers. He loved my c6000 output. He had a particular job that was a short run bathing suit catalog. Very high end quality. Photos shot in South America etc. The client had always wanted to go digital because of the run length, but was never happy enough with the quality on either the Igen or the Indigo. I ran a sample on the Cannon C6000 and the customer LOVED it. For the first time, they let the job run on a digital press.
I think that the Cannon Imagepress comes as close to offset as I have seen. If you are a commercial printing house, I can honestly say the the choice between the Cannon and the Xerox is clear. To keep things looking the most similar, go with the Cannon. The Xerox 700 is a fine box and a good box for small printers that run duplicator presses, but in a commercial shop, you are going to way out run the realistic capacity of the 700 real fast. Even if you wanted to stay with Xerox, as a commercial print shop, the 5000AP would suit you better than the 700 because of the capacity issues.
...Just my opinion.

 

[GordoMac]

A few things I'm aware of. If you do go with Xerox, ensure you are getting it from Xerox - not a Dealer or Agency as they like to be called. The service of an agency compared to true Xerox is a world apart. Also, the 700 is built on the same technologies as the 5000. That's why it's called a Digital Press instead of a DocuColor. Same RIP offerings at the same sw levels and the only big difference besides price is that the 5000 does not slow down for heavier stock while the 700 will.

Hope this helps on your quest.

 

[jennypie47]

thanks!

thanks!

Thanks everyone, I have alot to think about. If only they would splurge for an Indigo.....

 

[Craig]

Thanks everyone, I have alot to think about. If only they would splurge for an Indigo.....

Watch what you wish for!

 

[aqa-man]

used canon 6000 in UK?

used canon 6000 in UK?

Anyone know where there's a good used 6000 which is supportable by Canon? Pleez let me know!

 

[bhm8hwcm]

I have been following the discussion. I am an offset shop running digital as well.

I presently have a Xerox 250 and am looking to upgrade. On the Xerox side I am considering the 700, 5000 and very slight chance 7000 (depending if they offer a greate price on a demo machine perhaps). I am also looking at the Canon 6000.

I sent out files and paper to get samples printed on all machines yesterday. I want to see the toner laydown on the machines so I can get an idea of how they compare. I like the look of my 250 (and therefore 700 I suppose) as they do not use fuser oils. Past samples I have seen of the 5000 look good but I am not crazy about the fuser oil look. My understanding is the 7000 has less oil so it will look better and that is why I am getting samples. My feeling is the 7000 would be out of my budget though. I like the look of the Canon 6000 since it does not use the fuser oil.

One concern I have about the Canon is printing of reverse type. Every sample (their samples) I have seen with reverse type does not seem to print really sharp. The Xerox equipment seems to print cleaner/sharper. Other than that it looks great.

Once I get my samples back I can see first hand how they all compare with regards to the reverse type.

Anyone have any commments on how they compare with this...reverse type across the sheet, from head to foot etc.

 

[jennypie47]

We ended up looking at the Ricoh C900, Canon 6000 and 7000, Xerox 700 and Indigo.

Same samples on each. W were was having difficulty chosing between the 700 and the 6000 until we revisted the Xerox 700. The digital "shine" we see when we first run, tones down as the toner settles in making it nearly impossible to see the difference between the 700 and the 6000. That, plus the lower cost of the equipment, lower clicks, less service calls (from users), the Creo Rip and Darwin - all put together a nicer package for us.

I saw your concern on the reverses on the Canon 6000. I also notice on standard black type you get overspray so it appears hazy. I saw more inconsitantcies with the Canon print then I would have expected and when we ran black solids it wasn't quite up to par.
We also got quite alot of mixed reviews about the support and downtime associatated with the Canon even by those users Canon recommeded we speak to. Basically the consencious was you'll see a tech twice a week regardless of volume.

 

[GregNac19]

If you do go with Xerox, ensure you are getting it from Xerox - not a Dealer or Agency as they like to be called. The service of an agency compared to true Xerox is a world apart.

I work for a Xerox Agency. There is no difference in service for Dealer or Agent machines. My Agency on uses only Xerox Techs.

 

[bhm8hwcm]

Thanks for the review jennypie47. I don't have my samples back yet so I can not comment yet on the machines.

One of my big issues is that about 75% of my digital work is on 12PT (300gsm) stock so I really need a machine that can duplex this as putting everything back through is a pain. I understand the decurler on the 700 is better than the decurler on my 250 so this would help. Needing to duplex thick stocks is one of my main reasons for not looking at the 700 all that much so far.