Xerox 800 vs KM C8000 vs Canon C7010VP

[graymatter]

"Data flow" causing a paper jam? I'd love to hear a field tech try to elaborate on that.

 

[wmwilker]

"Data flow" causing a paper jam? I'd love to hear a field tech try to elaborate on that.

They are telling me that the image for the second side of a duplexed sheet is not arriving on time causing the jam. Go figure. I'm concerned that this printer may be a nightmare.

 

[wmwilker]

I just printed 20 book of 287 pages. It was imposed 2 up duplexed on 11x17. It had 9 exception pages. Book was printed on digital offset 60#. The Creo showed 1200 total copies.
The printer jammed 18 times.
Each jam was the same. It is not paper related as the sensors read that there is no image on the back of the sheet and it jams.

At the moment I would recommend to stay away from this printer.

 

[RKS]

We just finished reviewing and testing on the KM8000, Canon 7010vp & the Xerox 800 and will sign the papers on Monday on the Xerox 800. We felt the Xerox 800 provided the best quality overall with the KM8000 being a close second. But the clear option on the 800 really was the deciding factor. A big percent of our business is with the ad agencies & the design community and the spot clear will be a great marketing and selling tool.

 

[Printease]

Congrats RKS!
Would you mind sharing what configuration you went with?

 

[graymatter]

I just printed 20 book of 287 pages. It was imposed 2 up duplexed on 11x17. It had 9 exception pages. Book was printed on digital offset 60#. The Creo showed 1200 total copies.
The printer jammed 18 times.
Each jam was the same. It is not paper related as the sensors read that there is no image on the back of the sheet and it jams.

At the moment I would recommend to stay away from this printer.

Ouch. In my experience, though (starting well before Canon put their first laser unit in an MFP), data issues result in RIP delays, NOT paper jams. Once the job is RIPped, which may take a while depending on job size and complexity, the engine should run at or close to rated speed. If there's a "data flow" issue, it's internal to the engine. I don't know that machine from practical experience, however.

Seems a huge flaw, if issues with the image getting prepped for writing can actually cause jams and wasted stock/production time. There should be a jam code associated. You should get that code and post it for a second opinion from someone trained on that box, IMO.

 

[RKS]

Xerox 800 with 5th color option, Fiery Rip, regular saddlestitcher, squarefold/facetrimmer.

 

[benny123]

Ouch.

Seems a huge flaw, if issues with the image getting prepped for writing can actually cause jams and wasted stock/production time. There should be a jam code associated. You should get that code and post it for a second opinion from someone trained on that box, IMO.

Agree this is horse shit. slow ripping of file wont cause jam.

 

[wmwilker]

I work for a large electric utility and we print numerous manuals that are created in PowerPoint and Word among other applications.
The serviceman just told me we may have to run these type files through their variable data utility. I think I'm dealing with some totally inexperienced people here.

I'll let you guys know as this drama unfolds

 

[graymatter]

I work for a large electric utility and we print numerous manuals that are created in PowerPoint and Word among other applications.
The serviceman just told me we may have to run these type files through their variable data utility. I think I'm dealing with some totally inexperienced people here.

I'll let you guys know as this drama unfolds

What you need is a new service provider. Seriously. It's amazing and disconcerting that any reputable dealer or OEM branch would send a tech out on a production print system who'd seriously float the idea that either slow RIPping causes paper jams or that Word and PowerPoint need VDP to work properly.

Try this: You have a Creo, right? Send the job to the hold queue, then print it from there. If there's a "data flow" hiccup at that point, the issue is all their problem. That RIP can drive the engine at rated speed and once it's RIPped it's all raster and the source app is irrelevant. Don't let them off the hook. Pitch. A. Fit.

 

[wmwilker]

What you need is a new service provider. Seriously. It's amazing and disconcerting that any reputable dealer or OEM branch would send a tech out on a production print system who'd seriously float the idea that either slow RIPping causes paper jams or that Word and PowerPoint need VDP to work properly.

Try this: You have a Creo, right? Send the job to the hold queue, then print it from there. If there's a "data flow" hiccup at that point, the issue is all their problem. That RIP can drive the engine at rated speed and once it's RIPped it's all raster and the source app is irrelevant. Don't let them off the hook. Pitch. A. Fit.

Unfortunately service is a part of our lease.

All of my hot folders and print drivers send the file to the Storage Queue. I program the job from there and submit it to the Print Queue. I told our sales person that we had a Xerox 2045 with a Creo that would run these jobs. That was around 10 years ago. That was 10 year old technology. They are working on the problem.

As far as pitching a fit that is already happening. If the machine can't do what we expect then I think our legal department can handle our needs

 

[OBH]

Holy shit wmwilker !

Devastated to hear things are going to pot there.

Apart from 'this' job. How is the unit working on other jobs. Quality? Smooth running?
We were close to signing on for one of these machines.

In the end it came down to X800 or 1000 or KM8000 for us.
We're looking at signing on for with KM in the near future.

Hope things start panning out.

Before I sign off here, does this job 'HAVE' to be print via MS Word/Powerpoint?
I take it PDF is out of the question.

Good luck.

 

[wmwilker]

Holy shit wmwilker !

Devastated to hear things are going to pot there.

Apart from 'this' job. How is the unit working on other jobs. Quality? Smooth running?
We were close to signing on for one of these machines.

In the end it came down to X800 or 1000 or KM8000 for us.
We're looking at signing on for with KM in the near future.

Hope things start panning out.

Before I sign off here, does this job 'HAVE' to be print via MS Word/Powerpoint?
I take it PDF is out of the question.

Good luck.

The quality is very good. I'm happy with it. Smooth running is sometimes. The machine seems slower than the Xerox 7000 but I haven't done any tests to document that.

I guess I misstated about the files. A typical job for manuals that we print is composed of several PowerPoint and Word files that are combined into high quality PDFs. I will combine the files and place tabs between the chapters and submit the PDF through a hot folder or by printing on a PC or Mac though the print driver. I use high quality to make sure all the fonts are imbedded.

BTW one of our vendors uses the KM8000 and is having really good results. He is very happy with the printer.

 

[benny123]

Im still convinced it is your local support and not the box itself. Get someone else in to look at the problem. Printing pdf's to a production device is not a complex job.

 

[JustinB]

I've got a 7000vp and just finished a job that was an 8 page newsletter imposed in the rip to run as a saddle stitched book, then added variable data on the outside page of each newsletter. Total was 2588 pages sent to the rip that folded down and stapled into 647 newsletters.

Nary a hiccup in the whole process.

I know nothing about the creo, but the A3100 rip handled it without a problem.

FWIW
Justin

 

[seratne]

Thought I'd share my experiences with the Xerox 1000. We had the machine installed in mid June and it's been a battle ever since, but I'll start off with the positives.

The quality of the prints is fantastic, service is prompt, and the mph is great.

Now the bad. I say mph instead of ppm because if you take the 100ppm and do all the math to get the pages/hour you end up with being able to print 1,000 Duplex Tabloid sized pages in about 40 minutes. But in actual experience the machine will do it in about 1 hour 20 minutes, if you're lucky enough for it to not jam. The problem is the constant Adjusting Image Quality routine the machine does. Granted, this was when it was in an uncontrolled environment. But we've seen this message appear too often even after having built a controlled environment for the machine. The real problem with the Adjusting Image Quality routine is that when it happens in the middle of a print job, colors will shift, sometimes dramatically. We had an issue where printing a job with a blue (leaning towards cyan) box after printing 40 sheets, the AIQ routine happened, and the box was now purple.

Now the jams. Lots of jams. We laid out our expectations of being able to print preprinted shells off our press on the machine. And they said it would be fine if we kept the spray powder to a minimum. Even after dusting the sheets and trying to run them through the machine, nothing but jams. Until you find the right voodoo of fanning and rolling the paper before placing it in the machine. Most of our shells are 100# Gloss Cover. But even on 70# Opaque Text Shells there is still too many jams and voodoo needed to get it to run properly. Also because of the feed mechanism there are some other non shell papers that we simply can't get to feed without jams, or doubles (even sometimes feeding 10 sheets at the same time into the paper path, 10! ). The feed mechanism is the same as every desktop printer ever produced, one small feed roller, and some extra rollers that are supposed to prevent double feeds but never do. And they don't provide an option of a more robust suction feed system.

Hardware issues. We've had numerous circuit boards replaced, a whole center section of the machine paper path/imaging area replaced, and lots of motors replaced. It's actually surprising when we can run the machine for two days straight.

Software issues. There's a lot of what appears to be a loss of communication between the EFI RIP and the print controller. Lots of losing the print status, where the machine is printing but there's no indicator of how far along in the job you are. Errors that will cause the machine to just stop printing. And if you're clearing a jam, often the machine will just decide to turn its self off, losing your place in the job. Also we had the Clear Toner option installed. Expect lots of software issues with trying to use that and the RIP. It seems they can't handle the overprint of the spot clear channel and any transparency in the file. Basically it's a lot of testing and hoping that you don't miss something that the RIP has decided it doesn't want to print. Anything from text boxes to images, to whole pages. And when possible we have to do imposition before sending to the machine, otherwise doing imposition in the EFI RIP software will sometimes cause all sorts of rendering issues (missing lines, pages, etc.). The manufacturer of the machine took our sample files that were causing repeatable issues in late June and still have not provided a solution, a status, or any kind of information of when or even if a fix was going to be available.

Speaking of the Clear Toner option. It's basically the same as the other toners without any pigment in it. Meaning it has the same gloss to it as the process. So if you're looking to add a varnish like effect to anything with more than 80% coverage the effect will be minimal if you even notice it at all. I would not recommend the option, unless you have a very specific use case for it.

Documentation issues. Don't expect to be able to fix anything yourself. Next to ~90% of the error codes in the documentation they provide is "Reboot machine. If this doesn't solve your problem call service." Don't expect to even know what's causing an issue. If you have a paper jam, you have almost no idea of what's causing it to jam. You get an error code, and no information on it at all. And the Customer Support line can never help. You're always going to have to have a visit from a Tech.

Billing issues. We're being billed for metered supplies, tax is added to invoices, and the agreed upon lease start date apparently never made it to the billing department as they tried to charge us for a couple extra months.

We've had meetings with the Sales, Service and Software managers and all of these issues have been brought up and explained in great detail. They've promised solutions, but have not given a timeline on anything.

Now, we have had the machine installed for less than three months, and maybe these are just teething problems. But if we can't rely on a machine, we'll never be able to grow our digital business. Hopefully these issues get resolved, and I'll report back when/if anything happens. But we're currently looking to make a switch to Konica, or even Canon, and definitely a Creo RIP.

 

[wmwilker]

Thought I'd share my experiences with one of the previously mentioned 100ppm machines, one of the more expensive options... We had the machine installed in mid June and it's been a battle ever since, but I'll start off with the positives.

The quality of the prints is fantastic, service is prompt, and the mph is great.

Now the bad. I say mph instead of ppm because if you take the 100ppm and do all the math to get the pages/hour you end up with being able to print 1,000 Duplex Tabloid sized pages in about 40 minutes. But in actual experience the machine will do it in about 1 hour 20 minutes, if you're lucky enough for it to not jam. The problem is the constant Adjusting Image Quality routine the machine does. Granted, this was when it was in an uncontrolled environment. But we've seen this message appear too often even after having built a controlled environment for the machine. The real problem with the Adjusting Image Quality routine is that when it happens in the middle of a print job, colors will shift, sometimes dramatically. We had an issue where printing a job with a blue (leaning towards cyan) box after printing 40 sheets, the AIQ routine happened, and the box was now purple.

Now the jams. Lots of jams. We laid out our expectations of being able to print preprinted shells off our press on the machine. And they said it would be fine if we kept the spray powder to a minimum. Even after dusting the sheets and trying to run them through the machine, nothing but jams. Until you find the right voodoo of fanning and rolling the paper before placing it in the machine. Most of our shells are 100# Gloss Cover. But even on 70# Opaque Text Shells there is still too many jams and voodoo needed to get it to run properly. Also because of the feed mechanism there are some other non shell papers that we simply can't get to feed without jams, or doubles (even sometimes feeding 10 sheets at the same time into the paper path, 10! ). The feed mechanism is the same as every desktop printer ever produced, one small feed roller, and some extra rollers that are supposed to prevent double feeds but never do. And they don't provide an option of a more robust suction feed system.

Hardware issues. We've had numerous circuit boards replaced, a whole center section of the machine paper path/imaging area replaced, and lots of motors replaced. It's actually surprising when we can run the machine for two days straight.

Software issues. There's a lot of what appears to be a loss of communication between the RIP and the print controller. Lots of losing the print status, where the machine is printing but there's no indicator of how far along in the job you are. Errors that will cause the machine to just stop printing. And if you're clearing a jam, often the machine will just decide to turn its self off, losing your place in the job. Also we had the Clear Toner option installed. Expect lots of software issues with trying to use that and the RIP. It seems they can't handle the overprint of the spot clear channel and any transparency in the file. Basically it's a lot of testing and hoping that you don't miss something that the RIP has decided it doesn't want to print. Anything from text boxes to images, to whole pages. And when possible we have to do imposition before sending to the machine, otherwise doing imposition in the RIP software will sometimes cause all sorts of rendering issues (missing lines, pages, etc.). The manufacturer of the machine took our sample files that were causing repeatable issues in late June and still have not provided a solution, a status, or any kind of information of when or even if a fix was going to be available.

Speaking of the Clear Toner option. It's basically the same as the other toners without any pigment in it. Meaning it has the same gloss to it as the process. So if you're looking to add a varnish like effect to anything with more than 80% coverage the effect will be minimal if you even notice it at all. I would not recommend the option, unless you have a very specific use case for it.

Documentation issues. Don't expect to be able to fix anything yourself. Next to ~90% of the error codes in the documentation they provide is "Reboot machine. If this doesn't solve your problem call service." Don't expect to even know what's causing an issue. If you have a paper jam, you have almost no idea of what's causing it to jam. You get an error code, and no information on it at all. And the Customer Support line can never help. You're always going to have to have a visit from a Tech.

Billing issues. We're being billed for metered supplies, tax is added to invoices, and the agreed upon lease start date apparently never made it to the billing department as they tried to charge us for a couple extra months.

We've had meetings with the Sales, Service and Software managers and all of these issues have been brought up and explained in great detail. They've promised solutions, but have not given a timeline on anything.

Now, we have had the machine installed for less than three months, and maybe these are just teething problems. But if we can't rely on a machine, we'll never be able to grow our digital business. Hopefully these issues get resolved, and I'll report back when/if anything happens. But we're currently looking to make a switch to Konica, or even Canon, and definitely a Creo RIP.

Personally I would stay away from the Canon. Ours was installed in June and we are still having major problems. I work for a large corporation who has it's own law firm and we are to the point that we are working with our law firm to get the matter resolved.

 

[RKS]

Haven't heard of the types of problems Seretene is mentioning. Our 800 with the color option is delivering tomorrow morning. It was the show machine in the Fuji booth at Graph Expo. They will be upgrading the EFI System software to version 10 within the next two weeks, so hopefully we won't incur some of the problems he has. I know there are two 1000's with the clear option, in our area that are producing over 750,000 clicks per month and are running great.

 

[JoshB]

seratne,

Is there some reason you're dancing around which machine you're talking about. We can make inferences based on the capabilities and problems you're describing, but can't you just be clear about it?

 

[seratne]

seratne,

Is there some reason you're dancing around which machine you're talking about. We can make inferences based on the capabilities and problems you're describing, but can't you just be clear about it?

Post has been edited with Xerox and EFI added.