Xerox mis-selling of software support / rip support

[thebluesdude]

So were in the process of swapping machines and have been with Xerox for 15 years. In conversation with sales we were complaining how high the cost or rip / software support was, we were paying £1250 per quarter for two DC5000 machines. He told us something we didnt know AND now have in writing that you can cancel the support after the mandatory first year as long as your willing to be responsible for the repair of your rip if it failed!!! thats three terms of four years totaling over £40,000! in payments we didnt have to pay. I did not use the software support or needed any rip repair or maintenance in this period so am making sure I cancel this time. I just wanted to make sure anyone else isnt paying this if they didnt need to, as far as I can see its the same as mis-selling PPI insurance.

 

[dabob]

Ahhh Yes . . . but then again you don't need auto insurance until you have an accident . . . we chose to forgo the maintenance contract on our Heidelberg Pro Setter but not on the software (which includes any updates) and so far so good .. .. but we have a relationship with the ex heidelberg service tech and he will come in and work on the machine at a very reduced rate compared to Heidelberg

We have a Xerox 700 for two years now and have had to replace the fiery box once in that time so in my opinion the support is worth it . . .

 

[thebluesdude]

Good for you dude, my point though really is choice, I was told it was compulsory and been a tech myself repairing it would not have been an issue

 

[kdw75]

We are leasing our machines and RIPs from Xerox. Your saying we can cancel support on the RIPS, or just service and support? We have no real use for any support other than if it has a hardware problem.

 

[thebluesdude]

Yes that's right you can cancel the rip support and still maintain your normal full service

 

[MailGuru]

I agree with dabob. RIPs are predominately a very complicated set of firmware & software, and, nobody, but, nobody get's it right on the initial release. For EFI Fiery's, for the V2100, the EXP RIP cost is around $75,000 (USD). Service and support covers the new releases, and, patches to past releases. Without service & support on your RIP, you won't be getting those new patches & releases. Even if you are self-paying for your own service & support (cancelled), wait until the first time you have to call them, or, any other software manufacturer for that matter, and they tell you you are three releases behind, and, they are no longer supporting that release. "Nothing we can do for you". Then what?

-MailGuru

 

[Craig]

Not only that, but our CP 1000 will communicate with the RIP, so if you have a "communication error" who will support it?

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Too much of a risk. Good analogy was the car insurance - you don't need it until you need it - and then you're screwed.

 

[mattbeals]

I understand it's a lot of money to spend on something you might need. But what will it cost you in time, lost productivity, lost jobs, hard cash, etc. if something goes wrong? I hate to waste money. But I think on this because it is a business critical system I would begrudgingly spend the money on the service contract. What are the chances that I'll need it? Low. But I'm not interested in self insuring myself. When something breaks I want Xerox (or any other vendor) on the hook to fix it, not me.

 

[arossetti]

I have 2 open service logs with 2nd engineering regarding our DFE. We do late binding color management and have some very particular requirements. Don't know what we would do if we did not have service on the DFE.

 

[chevalier]

For EFI Fiery's, for the V2100, the EXP RIP cost is around $75,000 (USD).

If this is an accurate number that's incredibly expensive for a RIP. Add in 10-20% of total cost per year for software service/support and that's a seriously steep number. Does EFI really have that much control of this market?

 

[MailGuru]

If this is an accurate number that's incredibly expensive for a RIP. Add in 10-20% of total cost per year for software service/support and that's a seriously steep number. Does EFI really have that much control of this market?

I don't know the exact cost, but, I'm pretty sure that's in the ball-park for the high tech true quad-4 hyper-rip for the versant 2100. I'm sure the regular rip isn't near as expensive. About 2 months after the install, it had a power-source issue, and they replaced it with a brand new one. That's what service and support is for.

-MailGuru

 

[thebluesdude]

Thanks for all your input guys and it's each to their own, my main point still stands though, it's optional and we were never told that. I understand many people want to pay it for peace of mind but as I said it should be made clear that it is optional. By the way just to add, my two 5000 rips keeled over in the first year with updates, tech couldn't sort out why so they turned off updating and to this day they are still on the original cd installations, on top of that we were told to reinstall the fiery boxes ourselves to speed up response time, I ghosted both my systems for speed.

 

[wonderings]

I don't know the exact cost, but, I'm pretty sure that's in the ball-park for the high tech true quad-4 hyper-rip for the versant 2100. I'm sure the regular rip isn't near as expensive. About 2 months after the install, it had a power-source issue, and they replaced it with a brand new one. That's what service and support is for.

-MailGuru

When we were negotiating with Xerox for our hopefully soon to arrive Versant 2100, they told us that the Hyper RIP, the top end RIP they offer for the 2100, was $20,000 CDN more then the RIP that comes bundled with the 2100. I do not have the number breakdown to see what the RIP costs, but it certainly is not cheap.

 

[chevalier]

I don't know the exact cost, but, I'm pretty sure that's in the ball-park for the high tech true quad-4 hyper-rip for the versant 2100. I'm sure the regular rip isn't near as expensive. About 2 months after the install, it had a power-source issue, and they replaced it with a brand new one. That's what service and support is for.

-MailGuru

I'm not up-to-date on digital RIPs but that seems like a huge opportunity for competition. I'm assuming this RIP is driving one machine?

I'm now wondering why the other RIP vendors haven't entered this market. A top of the line offset/flexo RIP with all the bells as whistles would struggle to hit that price. Another way to look at that is that it is easily 1/3 the cost of a top of the line "8up" (100cm+) CtP with full automation. I get that it does VDP type functions but that's not that exactly some kind of incredibly advanced technology.

 

[MailGuru]

I'm not up-to-date on digital RIPs but that seems like a huge opportunity for competition. I'm assuming this RIP is driving one machine?

I'm now wondering why the other RIP vendors haven't entered this market. A top of the line offset/flexo RIP with all the bells as whistles would struggle to hit that price. Another way to look at that is that it is easily 1/3 the cost of a top of the line "8up" (100cm+) CtP with full automation. I get that it does VDP type functions but that's not that exactly some kind of incredibly advanced technology.

Totally different technology than a RIP that just does CTP.

A RIP on a digital press needs to be able to cache multiple images, and profiles for immediate recall, on the fly, during a large print run, without sacrificing printer speed. A CtP RIP only needs to assemble ONE complete image, and then burn a plate. While fast is nice, speed is a non-issue with a CtP RIP.

A RIP on a digital press needs to be able to continously communicate with the printer during the entire print run sending and receiving information relative to the simple "# of pages printed, number of pages left to go", "paper low/paper out in any given tray", "CMYK toner levels/empty/full" to such complex issues as print quality analysis and reporting edge-to-edge and top to bottom of the paper.

A RIP on a digital press, in communication with the printer, needs to be able to tell that you have selected a print run on 80# Gloss cover, but, the paper in the tray is 70# matte text, it needs to be able to store & retrieve many different jobs, as well as pre-set profiles and paper types.

It will have to handle, on the fly, such issues as imposition, duplexing (top-to-bottom, or, side-to-side), exit face up, or, face down, etc.

And, it will need to be able to do all these things (I've only mentioned about 10% of what the RIP will have to be able to handle), lightening fast so as not to slow or degrade the printer speed.

In contrast, all a CtP RIP has to do is burn a plate -- once.

-MailGuru

 

[Johu]

Totally different technology than a RIP that just does CTP.

A RIP on a digital press needs to be able to cache multiple images, and profiles for immediate recall, on the fly, during a large print run, without sacrificing printer speed. A CtP RIP only needs to assemble ONE complete image, and then burn a plate. While fast is nice, speed is a non-issue with a CtP RIP.

A RIP on a digital press needs to be able to continously communicate with the printer during the entire print run sending and receiving information relative to the simple "# of pages printed, number of pages left to go", "paper low/paper out in any given tray", "CMYK toner levels/empty/full" to such complex issues as print quality analysis and reporting edge-to-edge and top to bottom of the paper.

A RIP on a digital press, in communication with the printer, needs to be able to tell that you have selected a print run on 80# Gloss cover, but, the paper in the tray is 70# matte text, it needs to be able to store & retrieve many different jobs, as well as pre-set profiles and paper types.

It will have to handle, on the fly, such issues as imposition, duplexing (top-to-bottom, or, side-to-side), exit face up, or, face down, etc.

And, it will need to be able to do all these things (I've only mentioned about 10% of what the RIP will have to be able to handle), lightening fast so as not to slow or degrade the printer speed.

In contrast, all a CtP RIP has to do is burn a plate -- once.

-MailGuru

Wov that was pretty over simplified CtP rip and over complicated Digi rip.

Screens workflow Equios is also used to drive their Trupress Jet SX which is an inkjet based sheetfed press. Capable of printing 108 A4 pages a minute. All of which can be different. So it has the capability to cache repeated images, do the color management for the pages. Check the amount of copies and receive data from the press not only for complete color of the pages but also the content (image) which it will compare with the ripped image to see if there are quality issues. On top of that it will do pitstop server preflight for the incoming files, do complicated impositions, check if for some reason the press has missed a page due to what ever reason and re-send that page in the right spot to match the backside of the sheet. It can serve multiple clients doing jobs at the same time.
All of that and the cost is less than half of a digital rip prices mentioned earlier.

There is also a version of that workflow for their high speed inkjet web press which can do about 2700 A4/minute all of which can be different. So yep speed is an issue sometimes.

 

[chevalier]

Wov that was pretty over simplified CtP rip and over complicated Digi rip.

I thought the same but was tired and forgot to respond. Don't take me as some kind of litho evangelist (I'm far from it). In a previous life I also once ran a digital floor (multiple Canon ImageRunners and Ricoh C900s being driven via Fiery).

Other than VDP processing basically everything that described the Fiery RIP a good litho RIP can do also. The amount of data input, presetting, feedback/reporting and control that a modern Heidelberg offset press has it as advanced if not more advanced than a Xerox iGen or HP Indigo. I can RIP so many TIFFs in an hour that my CtP equipment will run for a week. Speed generally isn't a marketing focus because CtP devices are relatively slow compared to digital machines.

EFI doesn't have much (if any?) competition and can charge whatever the hell they want. Amonst the most expensive RIP packages for litho printers are from Esko and Heidelberg. You can literally buy every doodad, module, feature and screening set for list price less than $75k.

Screens workflow Equios is also used to drive their Trupress Jet SX

To add to your Screen comment. Fujifilm is very much doing the same by driving their Jpress with XMF (their litho software suite).

 

[MailGuru]

Wov that was pretty over simplified CtP rip and over complicated Digi rip.

Screens workflow Equios is also used to drive their Trupress Jet SX which is an inkjet based sheetfed press. Capable of printing 108 A4 pages a minute. All of which can be different. So it has the capability to cache repeated images, do the color management for the pages. Check the amount of copies and receive data from the press not only for complete color of the pages but also the content (image) which it will compare with the ripped image to see if there are quality issues. On top of that it will do pitstop server preflight for the incoming files, do complicated impositions, check if for some reason the press has missed a page due to what ever reason and re-send that page in the right spot to match the backside of the sheet. It can serve multiple clients doing jobs at the same time.
All of that and the cost is less than half of a digital rip prices mentioned earlier.

There is also a version of that workflow for their high speed inkjet web press which can do about 2700 A4/minute all of which can be different. So yep speed is an issue sometimes.

Real Terms:

We have an application that we run that has over 1,500 full 4-color images. Some are logos (which has to be the EXACT brand color of the client), some are full 4-color portrait facial photographs, some are winter/fall/spring/summer photographs, etc). All these images are hi-res, and not only different sizes, but, they may also be different file types (jpg, tiff, pdf, eps, etc.). Each record in my data file will have several image names embedded in several of the fields (ex: "billsmithportrait001287.jpg", "wintersnow88645.tiff", "firstunionbanklogo.pdf", etc.)

When I do my merge and output to ppml, and then drop the ppml to the Fiery Hot-Folder, the RIP has to scan my entire data file start to end and RIP the images of each and every image that it will need and cache them for immediate recall. Yes, for all 10,000 records and all 1,500 possible images, and, it will perform this daunting task in a mere 30-45 seconds at startup prior to printing, including all the preflight-error-checking etc. Now, say what you will, but, there's no way a DFE in front of a CtP will ever be called upon to accomplish such a feat.

The EFI will also run to multiple printers, as long as the other printers are the same as the one it is installed on.

-MailGuru