I am looking at the new Xerox Versant 2100 and am impressed. Our main application is full bleed, full color saddle stitched and twin loop catalogs. The Plockmatic Pro 50 options seems to be a great option. What do Konica, Ricoh and Canon have that competes or comes close to this in quality, speed, features with the ability to do full bleed saddle stiching in line?
Xerox Versant 2100
- Thread starter Despotes
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arossetti
Well-known member
Ricoh - New C9100/C9110 printers. 110/130ppm respectively.
Konica - bizhub PRESS C1100 - 100ppm
Canon - imagePRESS 7011 - 70ppm
I included the prints per minute only to help illustrate what class of digital printer they occupy but know that they all may or may not be rated to run that speed on all stock weights. The Ricoh is announced but not released, I would not recommend a 901 which they are currently selling. The Konica has a lot of information out there since it has been around for a while now. The 1100 is a refresh of the c8000. I don't have a lot of information on the canon. The one thing that I don't like is printers with dual fusers which both Canon and KM have. I see it the same way the airline industry sees 3+ engine planes. It just mean extra maintenance and more things that can go wrong. The 1st or 2nd fuser cannot be bypassed in the case where 1 fuser goes down. If either fuser breaks you're down.
Konica - bizhub PRESS C1100 - 100ppm
Canon - imagePRESS 7011 - 70ppm
I included the prints per minute only to help illustrate what class of digital printer they occupy but know that they all may or may not be rated to run that speed on all stock weights. The Ricoh is announced but not released, I would not recommend a 901 which they are currently selling. The Konica has a lot of information out there since it has been around for a while now. The 1100 is a refresh of the c8000. I don't have a lot of information on the canon. The one thing that I don't like is printers with dual fusers which both Canon and KM have. I see it the same way the airline industry sees 3+ engine planes. It just mean extra maintenance and more things that can go wrong. The 1st or 2nd fuser cannot be bypassed in the case where 1 fuser goes down. If either fuser breaks you're down.
arossetti
Well-known member
Nice, is that new for the c1100 or was the c8000 like that also?
Having had a good look at the Versant 2100 and the KM 1100 (the Canon is at least 1-2 generations older and not a serious contender in this group), they both have very good image quality. The launch party for the C9100 isn't for a few weeks, so I don't have any hands on on the new Ricoh. IMO the KM still wins on image quality, although Xerox has closed the gap by so much it's now in the same ball park. The real question is: whose story do you believe on automation/productivity and colour consistency? In the real world that's much more important than the last 5% of image quality. Nobody has any production experience of either machine, so it's a leap of faith based on previous products.
arossetti
Well-known member
That is interesting if it turns out to be true.
For Xerox Versant booklet finishing, worth considering the Horizon ColorWorks platform. With over 1,000 units installed worldwide (on various prior models), the ColorWorks technology platform has proven multi-shift reliability, productivity, uptime and ease-of-use. Brochure: http://www.xerox.com/digital-printing/latest/V21DS-05U.pdf
Well it's in the press release, so I assume so. The 7100 is "just" 70 and 80 ppm depending on version chosen and that's the one that is priced in the same general area as the versant 2100 and the konica-minolta 1100. Slow compared with those it may be, but it has a couple of interesting tricks up it's sleeve that might be a real game changer for the right application. I'm not under nda, but it would be dirty pool to mention those and spoil Ricoh's party in a week or so. Mind you, I don't think there are many people they haven't briefed on the quiet yet!
To the OP: we're probably not going with Ricoh ourselves this time, but if I was you I'd "reach out" to them as well and find out what their USPs are on the 7100. Might be interesting to you, might not.
msaeger
Well-known member
Ricoh sells the same booklet maker.
Systems and Products: Plockmatic International AB
The plockmatic ones run at full engine speed.
dpolglaze
Registered Users
Transparency: I'm a systems analyst/trainer for a KM dealer.
Keep in mind that Ursula Burns is removing Xerox's focus on the printing end of the business. It's common industry knowledge and she has said essentially that on more than one occasion. Also note that everything Xerox "makes" is made by Fuji except what? The iGen?
Anyway, the KM1100 runs all weights at rated speed. It's the only one with a vacuum feed system--no pick rollers. Lowest fuser heat and best new toner design with a low melt point and developer-infused toner. Lowest voltage use, too. Also, watch out for the "we have 2400x2400 dpi" from your Xerox rep. This is one of their most glaring misleading statements and people still fall for it. It's baloney and the reps don't get that. Xerox's interpolated 2400 dpi is 1 bit. KM is the only true and actual 1200x1200 dpi at 8 bits. But, the Versant like the KM1100 are new and that is one thing to consider. Our first few 1070s earlier this year did have issues. We worked them out eventually with KM and the units are going fine now. We have one 1100 in the field on trial and have at least one minor issue KM is helping us with, and the customer is really pleased with it. We've never had a KM unit not purchased at the end of a trial and we do them fairly regularly.
I can't really speak much on the inline accessories except to say unless you can truly make the case for it, go with offline or near line options. We don't even attempt to sell these things because we're mostly in the hard-core mailing business and they can and do break down way more often than the more industrial strength offline products made by third parties.
If you go with the Versant, just be sure to hold them to the fire on everything. Be the toughest customer they have and see how they react. Get the Creo. Much stronger RIP and easier to use than Fiery and Creo comes with everything built in that a commercial shop needs where as things like VDP impositions, basic profiles and base curves for all media types will require expensive and complicated options with the Fiery.
Happy Printing!
Dwight
Keep in mind that Ursula Burns is removing Xerox's focus on the printing end of the business. It's common industry knowledge and she has said essentially that on more than one occasion. Also note that everything Xerox "makes" is made by Fuji except what? The iGen?
Anyway, the KM1100 runs all weights at rated speed. It's the only one with a vacuum feed system--no pick rollers. Lowest fuser heat and best new toner design with a low melt point and developer-infused toner. Lowest voltage use, too. Also, watch out for the "we have 2400x2400 dpi" from your Xerox rep. This is one of their most glaring misleading statements and people still fall for it. It's baloney and the reps don't get that. Xerox's interpolated 2400 dpi is 1 bit. KM is the only true and actual 1200x1200 dpi at 8 bits. But, the Versant like the KM1100 are new and that is one thing to consider. Our first few 1070s earlier this year did have issues. We worked them out eventually with KM and the units are going fine now. We have one 1100 in the field on trial and have at least one minor issue KM is helping us with, and the customer is really pleased with it. We've never had a KM unit not purchased at the end of a trial and we do them fairly regularly.
I can't really speak much on the inline accessories except to say unless you can truly make the case for it, go with offline or near line options. We don't even attempt to sell these things because we're mostly in the hard-core mailing business and they can and do break down way more often than the more industrial strength offline products made by third parties.
If you go with the Versant, just be sure to hold them to the fire on everything. Be the toughest customer they have and see how they react. Get the Creo. Much stronger RIP and easier to use than Fiery and Creo comes with everything built in that a commercial shop needs where as things like VDP impositions, basic profiles and base curves for all media types will require expensive and complicated options with the Fiery.
Happy Printing!
Dwight
Fred DeBolt
New member
To clarify – Xerox is fully committed to the Graphic Communications industry. Our product developments underscore it, our investments underscore it and our executives underscore it every day when they meet with print and marketing service providers
The comment regarding 2400 x 2400 DPI resolution requires some correction. The Versant 2100, like many Xerox products, uses a laser imaging system that is addressable to 2400 x 2400 DPI. The laser imaging system in any xerographic product, Xerox, KM, or otherwise, is what is used to create the halftoning patterns that we are all familiar with in this industry - 175lpi, 200lpi, stochastics, etc. The higher the imaging resolution, the more flexibility you have with your halftones in terms of their shape.
Before the laser imaging system is engaged however, the incoming PDF file must be RIPed. On the Versant 2100, this RIP process occurs at 1200 x 1200 x 10bits on the EFI server. The 10 bits per pixel capability is currently unique in the industry and greatly helps with preventing contours in graphic sweeps.
Once a file is RIPed, the resulting rasterized image data is not, in fact, "interpolated" as is often stated, so your misunderstanding is not uncommon. What does happen is that the 2400 x 2400 "grid" is used to take the incoming CMYK pixel values and turn them into the halftoned patterns that one sees on the printed sheet.
Imaging systems are complex, and it is easy to get confused. The rule of thumb in imaging is "garbage in, garbage out". On the Versant 2100, we provide the print engine with benchmark 1200 x 1200 x 10 bit RIP resolution, and we then translate that RIPed image into a halftones image using our proven VCSEL technology.
- Fred DeBolt, VP, Cut Sheet Line of Business, Xerox
Regardless of sheet-fed print engine, I'd always recommend off/nearline finishing. Unless you always run the same exact paper for same application and have tested to run consistently. You will have paper jams in your finisher, which now stops your engine, which now holds up other jobs that do not require stitching, etc. A good offline booklet maker will handle the work of 3 or 4 engines quite possibly. my .02. good luck
Craig
Well-known member
Fred and Dwight
As a customer of both manufactures I feel the need to step in and give my opinion. I have a CP1000 and a C6000, both machines print with a quality that the above average person would accept. Today many products across the lines are producing prints that are very comparable. You can split the DPI/bit hairs all day long, but what matters in my world is if I can sell the prints to the above average quality clients. I have no issues with that from either machine. Some Joe Blow isn't picking up his flyer, rack card or business card and pulling out his 10x loop to look at halftones, it's just not happening.
What the manufactures NEED to do is stop the "press like" BS and start selling the machines on their strengths. You can take the exact same print from every manufacture and lay them on the table ad each print is sellable. (assuming all machines are profiled and calibrated to produce similar color) Manufactures have succeeded in image quality, now they need to make the machines more robust, and that has been improving too.
As a customer of both manufactures I feel the need to step in and give my opinion. I have a CP1000 and a C6000, both machines print with a quality that the above average person would accept. Today many products across the lines are producing prints that are very comparable. You can split the DPI/bit hairs all day long, but what matters in my world is if I can sell the prints to the above average quality clients. I have no issues with that from either machine. Some Joe Blow isn't picking up his flyer, rack card or business card and pulling out his 10x loop to look at halftones, it's just not happening.
What the manufactures NEED to do is stop the "press like" BS and start selling the machines on their strengths. You can take the exact same print from every manufacture and lay them on the table ad each print is sellable. (assuming all machines are profiled and calibrated to produce similar color) Manufactures have succeeded in image quality, now they need to make the machines more robust, and that has been improving too.
dpolglaze
Registered Users
Right on, Craig! Thank you...I try not to be a "talking head" and maybe I missed that mark a little this time, especially on the dpi thing. Even as a dealer I hold KM to thier promises because it protects our customers. When they fall short--and they all do to some degree--I let them know and I make sure to train to the reality of what I know. I am definitely impressed with the improvements over the KM8000 on the KM1100 and 1085 and especially the improvements on the KM1070 over the 6000 and 7000! KM appeared to listen to people especially on the color and front-to-back registration stability. As you asked, these are two "strenghts" I attest to honestly, but again, it comes down a lot of times to training and suppot and making sure the customer knows how to address whatever their client challenges are. FOR DESPOTES: Whatever you decide, keep your reps, analysts and trainers focused on your unique needs so when the machine gets in there you have as few challenges as possible meeting your clients' standards.
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