Best B&W in price range

[CSimpson]

Our in-plant will be getting new equipment late this year, and I was wondering what equipment people here think fits my wants the best.

average 1,200,000 impressions a month peak is 2,000,000 a month
must be able to insert sheets via a cold paper path
must be able to print tabs and handle ordered stock
must have a high capacity stacker
Must be able to do stapled sets inline
Must have at least 4 paper trays and hold about 4000 sheets
Do several large (100,000 records) varible data jobs a year
Only have 160 working hours in a month--overtime and second shifts are not an option
Only have one operator
Trying to keep machine(s) cost to less than $200,000
The machine(s) must be able to be in good working order after 5 years of use
Majority of the printing will be duplex 11x17


One machine I have seen on the web seems to be designed for exactly what I want, the oce 4110. However, I don't know much about there product or the price point of this machine.

 

[Craig]

WOW, that's a tall order!

Maybe look at a Nuvera 144, but I doubt with all the bells and whistles it will be in the $200,000 range.

I have a Ricoh MP9000 (90ppm), I know they make a MP1356 (135ppm) but I don't know if one would hold up to the continuous volume (may need 2), and I don't think they have a HCS finisher with a cart. I can tell you with our MP9000 the finisher holds about 3000 sheets, it has 6 paper decks that will hold something like 8000 sheets, and 2 interposers for post fuser inserting. It has a 320 GB of hard drive and we do quite a bit of VDP in PDF format from Fusion Pro. Or MP9000 is just starting it's 3rd year and we have almost 9,500,000 on it (about 396,000/month) but it only runs about 60% of the time. It's only short fall is the duplex tray, the guides are made out of plastic and we find that the tray need to be replaced about every 3,000,000 or so. But all in all I have been very pleased. Or dealer guaranteed 5 years or 20 million or we get a new machine.

 

[X33]

Xerox Nuvera 144 :

Xerox Nuvera 100/120/144 EA Digital Production System for Black & White Publishing

I'm not sure about pricing, just call Xerox and ask for a proposal.

 

[lfelton]

We had K-M in a couple of weeks ago to talk about their production B&W kit and that's probably worth a look as they seem serious players in that area. The entry level 1050e ticks all of your boxes, but I'd be concerned over the duty cycle, which is 1.5M a month. A bit too close for comfort to your volume? The 1600P/2000P/2500P are a different beast altogether and they go up to 8M a month duty cycle and 250ppm. Don't know about prices on those, as we're more at the 1050e end of the B&W market, but as the 1050e would be less than 50% of your budget, possibly the 1600P might be in budget?

Sorry not to be help more, but hopefully some people with "big iron" B&W can chip in with better advice.

 

[sweatyclimber]

We had K-M in a couple of weeks ago to talk about their production B&W kit and that's probably worth a look as they seem serious players in that area. The entry level 1050e ticks all of your boxes, but I'd be concerned over the duty cycle, which is 1.5M a month. A bit too close for comfort to your volume? The 1600P/2000P/2500P are a different beast altogether and they go up to 8M a month duty cycle and 250ppm. Don't know about prices on those, as we're more at the 1050e end of the B&W market, but as the 1050e would be less than 50% of your budget, possibly the 1600P might be in budget?

Sorry not to be help more, but hopefully some people with "big iron" B&W can chip in with better advice.

Since the 1050e's pricing has gone down so much, maybe looking at 2 would be a better option... you should be able to get two for 120k or so. I would suggest that you not push a KM duty cycle... when I was there, we usually targeted 10% of the duty cycle for optimal service. That being said we had plenty running 60% but if the mindset is 10% you may be sorry if you push it too far. You may also want to look at Xerox 4123 x2.

 

[CSimpson]

One Nuvera 144 won't be able to due the volume in the time allotted Two Nuvera 100 or 120 would be more suited, but they get pretty expensive because you have to do so many add-ons to get the features I need.

I don't know anything about Ricoh. I will have to look into them.

KM 1050e I can get for $40,000 a piece with high cap paper trays, high cap stacker, and a 100 sheet stapler. I am not sure if they allow you to insert via cold paper path and can handle ordered sets. I also had concerns in there ability to handle variable data since they don't have a separate controller. I also have heard that they slow down dramatically if doing two-sided 11x17, is this true? If it requires too many of them to get the job done I am worried about my operator keeping them all running.

Does anyone know anything about the Oce 4110 product?

 

[smatros]

One machine I have seen on the web seems to be designed for exactly what I want, the oce 4110. However, I don't know much about there product or the price point of this machine.

I believe Oce will merge with KM very soon, they already sell some machines under oce brand that are made by Konica Minolta. So I believe there will be some problems with keeping value of OCE if the company gets "eaten" by KM.

 

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

The Oce 4110 (also branded under Konica) and Xerox Nuvera 288 are two of your best options to look at. Both are twin engine configurations on the Oce they do both in one unit and on the 288 it's two 144 engines. This will allow you to run at ½ speed if something should happen to one of the engines.

2,000,000 max a month/ 20 days a month= 100,000 a day/ 8 hours a day= 12,500 an hour/ 60 minutes in a hour= 208.3 ppm running at 100% uptime.

The 288 is going to be over your request for $200,000 or less. We now have 6 of these and they are doing basically what you are describing.

You will also want to consider contingency plans for if and when problems arise. Have it well known and documented so that you are not scrambling to figure out how to get the work out. This could include though you say isn’t an option of working overtime, additional shifts, weekends, or outsourcing.

 

[CSimpson]

The Oce 4110 (also branded under Konica)

That is the 6xxx series that rebranded by KM.

 

[PineyBob]

The first thing that came to mind is to grab TWO of the Canon iR110's used with a low copy volume. They're out there but you have to look. That would give you the "Big Iron" production capacity. Couple it with a EFI MicroPress and maybe even Digital Store Front for a nice not to expensive solution.

If you're doing transaction printing then a different end would be required and some of the Xerox stuff is a little "cleaner" on the front end side but say bye bye to the budget.

The iR110's are absolutely made of iron in turns of wear and tear and not to be funny if you go and get two and your shop is on the second floor check with engineering as you may exceed the floor load with two. NOT kidding!! I lost a deal because of that.

DO NOT get suckered into "Fast Plastic" like the Canon 7105 and some of the other 105 ppm and above machines. the K-M looks OK but with the caveat that at those volumes it's a 3 year "throw away" machine which is fine as long as you know it going in.

 

[UberTech]

I really can't see 1050e(s) being fast enough for what you want to do but just to correct some comments.

The 1050e can have an external rip. It is called a Micropress and it can drive multiple engines at the same time. This will work on canon's, ricoh's KM's and others. It passes through the native controller and is based on a Harlequin rip an improves the quality also.

Micorpress is another company that has be absorbed by fiery EFI Color Print Management Software PDF Digital Printing Offset.

 

[PineyBob]

I think I mentioned the MicroPress but only for Canon.

It does work quite well on the KM products as Minolta was the first to take on the MicroPress when T/R Systems was the manufacturer/developer of the RIP.

 

[UberTech]

Also forgot to mention if you are doing really low coverage that is consistently less than 4% the the 1050e will not be a good choice as it is dual component. This type of coverage kills the developer. Best to stick with a monocomponent engine like the Canon or Oce.

If your printing something that is going to be trimmed then you may get away with putting dark boxes outside the trim areas to bring up the coverage.

 

[eso4874]

I would have to go with PitneyBob on this one. The imageRUNNER Pro/VP series is built like a tank. It's made of metal, inside and out. It's a true digital press that runs and runs and runs.

From my experience this press has several advantages. It has a very short paper path, which results in
very infrequent jams. The only time I have experienced jams is when a component needs to be replaced.
Other than that this machine runs like a champ.

The second advantage, and I'm surprised how often this is overlooked, is that this press prints at waist
level. If there is jam, it's very easy to clear and everything in the engine opens very easily, there is
no looking for a needle in haystack approach to finding a jam.

Another important benefit is the vacuum corragated feed system. While the majority of systems use
friction fed rollers, which wear out and result in reliability issues, this engine uses a suction belt
and air to feed the paper into the marking engine. You stateed you have a tight window of time
to produce work and only one operator, you will definitely appreciate a machine as reliable as this
one due to very reliable feeding.

Also, I'm going to answer each one of your questions below:

average 1,200,000 impressions a month peak is 2,000,000 a month

The iR Pro 7110 has a duty cycle of 3 million impresions


must be able to insert sheets via a cold paper path

Once the engine starts up, it takes anything thrown at it, up to 150lb Index.


must be able to print tabs and handle ordered stock

Tabs are easy to load, easy to setup and no problems running


must have a high capacity stacker

You can add up to 3 stackers that each stack 5,000 sheets


Must be able to do stapled sets inline

The finisher can staple up to 100 sheets in the finisher


Must have at least 4 paper trays and hold about 4000 sheets

Each PSM can accomodate 4000 sheets. You would need two PSMs which would give you 6 drawers.


Only have 160 working hours in a month--overtime and second shifts are not an option

You need a reliable device with a tight window, this machine can handle the requirements.


Trying to keep machine(s) cost to less than $200,000

This machine starts at $183,000MSRP, street price is even better.


The machine(s) must be able to be in good working order after 5 years of use

I know companies that have the original iR Pro going back 10 years. You can put 150 million+ impressions on this engine - it's built too good.


Majority of the printing will be duplex 11x17

Can handle up to 14.33X18.5 which includes 11X17


I hope this informaiton helps, and I hope you do check out this engine before you make a decision.

 

[CSimpson]

I assumming the ImageRunner machines are the same as the Kodak Digimatser line...I have seen the Kodaks and I was impressed the only downside with them was the need for two additional paper on for printing and one for inserting. It puts my cost a little higher than I wanted it to be, but out of the machines I have seen so far it is currently my favorite.

 

[PineyBob]

I assumming the ImageRunner machines are the same as the Kodak Digimatser line...I have seen the Kodaks and I was impressed the only downside with them was the need for two additional paper on for printing and one for inserting. It puts my cost a little higher than I wanted it to be, but out of the machines I have seen so far it is currently my favorite.

Sir,

They are one and the same. Good machines. They can easily handle 100 million impressions

 

[ASM]

Mr Simpson; from the sound of it you should be looking at the Oce Varioprint 6250, not the new 4110 range (only released at Drupa). Duty cycle will be no problem. BERTL rated this machine as 'beyond five stars' - here is Australia some users have reached 3 million impressions before a service call and one billion pages have been achieved on a few machines. For a real-life case study (and you can contact the printer - a division of a $500million sales print conglomerate called Blue Star), see: http://dl.oce.com/downloads/En/Pdf/cases/pirioncase.pdf

Good luck - it's a tough choice out there but a 6250 will give you a lot of peace of mind; and profit.

 

[CSimpson]

Mr Simpson; from the sound of it you should be looking at the Oce Varioprint 6250, not the new 4110 range (only released at Drupa). Duty cycle will be no problem. BERTL rated this machine as 'beyond five stars' - here is Australia some users have reached 3 million impressions before a service call and one billion pages have been achieved on a few machines. For a real-life case study (and you can contact the printer - a division of a $500million sales print conglomerate called Blue Star), see: http://dl.oce.com/downloads/En/Pdf/cases/pirioncase.pdf

Good luck - it's a tough choice out there but a 6250 will give you a lot of peace of mind; and profit.

I will look into this for sure, everything I read on the web seems very positive.


I have a satelite location in my inplant and we will be replacing our current machine there as well. I was trying to find some information on the KM 1050 engine, but so far I have come up empty, so I was wondering if people here knew the answer. What is the print speed on legal and ledger and how much does the machine slow down when duplexing letter, legal, and ledger?

 

[sweatyclimber]

out of there spec sheet:
105 copies/min. (8.5" x 1111")
86 copies/min. (8.5" x 1111"R)
59 copies/min. (1111" x 17")
105 copies/min. (5.5" x 8.5")
70 copies/min. (8.5" x 14")
91 copies/min. (5.5" x 8.5"R)

 

[rcreveli]

The IR110's are the built by Kodak. They are the Kodak Digimasters. I think you can get one new in your price range and with awesome quality. We are much smaller than you doing 400k Min Monthly Volume and 1mil on the high end. The Digimaster was to much machine for us and we put in 2 xerox 4112's they image with the same quality as the Nuvera. We ended up ruling out the Oce' line due to quality. The black are not very rich. They look like 90% black off of a press. That being said the oce 6160 is awesome to behold in a demo and is the only machine as far as I know that duplexes simultaneously with a single engine. The xerox and Kodak machines require a second engine, similar to perfecting on a 2 color.

Ray