General print question

[iggee002]

Hello,

I am new here, and was hoping someone can help me. I am posting in the Adobe forum because I am working in Illustrator CS4. BTW I do not know a whole lot about print design...I was thrown into this job because I know how to use the software. I'm not complaining though. I want to do what I am doing, but I am really learning as I go. Please forgive me if I seem ignorant, is all I'm saying.

My question is this:

One of my various jobs is to design packaging for my company's products. I create the design in Illustrator (at the default print settings), and then upload it to our factory in China.

Before I upload, I print on our HP CP2500 and submit it to my boss for approval. Now, the samples are coming back, and the colors are not the same. They seem washed out compared to my sample prints here in the office.

I am designing in CMYK, and the files are almost all vector. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong. I told my boss that my guess is the ink quality the Fty is using because the files were CMYK, and that should be universal...right? She told me that China needs Pantones...I said that Pantones would still have CMYK values to print...

Any advice or insight at all would be very, very welcome. I want to fix this issue...and also prevent it from happening in the future.

Thanks a lot!
Cherie

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

CMYK is device dependant. It is hard to know who is not printing to standard, and what is the relevant standard.

 

[iggee002]

Thanks for the reply

So, there is nothing I can do on my end to prevent this from happening again?

 

[gordo]

Thanks for the reply

So, there is nothing I can do on my end to prevent this from happening again?

You need to find a way to synchronize your color with your printer's color.

Some ideas without going too deep that may help.

Do you have samples of previous files that were printed in China so that you could compare them with how they print on your HP? If so you might be able to tweak your HP so that it better matches their presswork or adjust how your files are displayed on screen so that they better match the presswork.

Ideally they would provide you with an ICC profile that represents how they print - and you would use that profile on your HP so that it better simulates the expected presswork.

best, gordo

 

[tommrz]

Pantone for packaging is almost a default. Pantone colors are much more predictable. Yes, there is a CMYK "match" for every PMS color but they rarely actually "match". Also, bare in mind that something printed on your office printer will most likely look nice and shiny where as the same file printed on offset carton stock will look dull and washed out. Also, unless you do a little color management, there is no way to predict how CMYK will look when printed at the factory in China. I believe they also use different color standards in China than are used in the US.
My suggestion would be to stick with Pantone colors and invest in a Pantone guide book that shows both coated and uncoated color samples.

 

[gordo]

My suggestion would be to stick with Pantone colors and invest in a Pantone guide book that shows both coated and uncoated color samples.

Pantone only works if indeed the job is a spot color job. If it's a CMYK job then specifying in Pantone won't help and may make maters worse.
Specify CMYK for CMYK printing. Specify Pantone for Pantone spot color printing.
Even when specifying Pantone for spot color work - there's no guarantee that the Pantone library will be used by your Chinese printer. I've gotten (wet) proofs back from China where the Pantone Spot color numbers have been changed to names like: Bluebird soars, and Crimson sun.


best, gordo

 

[tommrz]

She told me that China needs Pantones...I said that Pantones would still have CMYK values to print...

I guess from the above I assumed she was thinking that even Pantone colors were printed from CMYK builds. Looks like the boss is suggesting PMS colors rather than tint builds.

 

[ajr]

Gordon,

Maybe all Pantone colours should have names instead of numbers. Woud make life more interesting.

A

 

[iggee002]

"I guess from the above I assumed she was thinking that even Pantone colors were printed from CMYK builds. Looks like the boss is suggesting PMS colors rather than tint builds."

You are right..I did think that. I thought things were printed in either RBG, CMYK, or Grayscale since those were what I set my new documents to in Illustrator and PhotoShop. All the files I submitted were in CMYK format (all my new documents for the Fty start with the default print settings in Illustrator).

 

[iggee002]

Thanks for the insight everyone...

I will use the color picker and find the closest Pantone when the fty directly requests Pantone colors. Otherwise, I figure the CMYK values will be enough.

I'm really thinking that my first instinct that there is not much I can do may have been the right idea. Different samples look different even though the artwork was created with the same root file. I think this may be China just doing things as cheaply as possible, and my boss understands these print design details about as much as the average Staples customer. JUST like she understood my repeated laments that I am not a print designer, lol.

Oh well...it is what it is. The bottom line is that I am getting flack, and I also like this line of work if I could quit being such a noob about it, so would like to find a way to prevent this type of stuff.

No much I can do if they are using crappy print practices...but I would like to know more about this spot color vs CMYK printing stuff, and how to know when to prepare for what.

Any good resources out there on the topic?

Thanks, Cherie

 

[tommrz]

The difference is pretty simple, CMYK uses a percentage of 4 (or less) different Process inks to make a printed color where as Pantone uses a single ink formulated by an ink technician. Using Pantone inks takes allot of the inconsistency problems out of the equation. For example, if you are going for PMS 485 built out of CMYK and the particular press or press operator likes to run his yellow low it will look different than another guy running the same job on the same press that runs his inks to density. Using Pantone inks takes the guess work out.
As a rule of thumb, if you have a specific color such as a corporate or brand color that you want to look the same across your job use Pantone inks. If you have photos or graphics use 4c. You can mix these up too. It is common practice to have CMYK images of people and products running on the same piece that uses Pantones for logos.
Up front planning is crucial. Ask your print vendor things like how many units does the press have and realize that typically the more inks you use the more the job will cost.

 

[pdan]

I cannot believe I'm going to be the first to say this but, Pantone Solid is NOT what you want to creating from. I have here, in my hand, a Pantone Solid to Process book. You would cringe at some of the conversions. I'm gonna stop right here and edit.
Pantone Process is expected to be achievable, and consistant. No colors fall outside the CMYK spectrum and bypass all color look up tables. Hopfully this will get expanded on.
Consider designing your piece, export a Press quality pdf, and send it to a local printer with a calibrated color printer for proofing (I'd probably charge an outsider $15 for a proof, fwiw). If they are not consistant with the oversee's results, you need to communicate with them about their color profiles, or balance budjet to quality. (That's your bosses choice btw)

 

[richsweeney]

Try calling a local (American Printer), and see if they can come close to matching the chicoms print price. Then you can ask them what to do about color.

 

[rmh1013]

You don't say what format you sent the file to the printer in. I run a small print shop and when customers want to do their own typesetting I usually tell them to convert it to pdf format or there may be a variance in color. I would suggest you convert your product to pdf and print it yourself from the pdf file. If you send that file to the printer there should be little change if they are printing it in 4 color on a postscript printer. If you have converted it to pdf and the color seems weak, you may want to check your conversion settings. They may be set on rgb conversion which may cause your colors to fade. I am not familiar with Chinese print practices but I'm sure they can't be too different than our own. I hope this helps

 

[iggee002]

Hi all,

I am taking it all in..thanks!

rmh1013, I send Illustrator files in .ai format. They will not accept anything else...believe me, I have tried. They call anything else a JPG and stop production until I produce an Illustrator file. Was a real problem here earlier in the year since I had never used Illustrator before. I've since learned how to use the software well Hehe.

 

[Alith7]

No much I can do if they are using crappy print practices...but I would like to know more about this spot color vs CMYK printing stuff, and how to know when to prepare for what.

Any good resources out there on the topic?

Thanks, Cherie

First off, claiming they have "crappy print practices" just because you are not familiar with the methods of the package printing world is not fair to the printer or anyone else. Please, not offense meant, but you came in here claiming ignorance, which there is nothing wrong with that, everyone needs to start somewhere, but claiming someone elses processes are flawed because you are ignorant is not the right way to look at this.

first off, you need to talk with your representative in China and find out HOW they are printing your packaging. is it 4-color process? or is it spot(PMS)? Look at any product box around you. they are VERY frequently printed with a blend of spot color inks to hit specific color ranges that wouldn't normally be possible otherwise. For example Mt. Dew's light green would be a very ugly screen unless it was printed with a spot color. Synder pretzels use a spot red with a spot green and mix it as a duo tone to get the "brown" color of the pretzels on some of their bags, but also have the brighter reds and greens for other parts of the bag.

Once you establish that, make sure that all aspects of your layout are colorized appropriately for the job specs. If it is supposed to be CMYK, make sure ALL your placed images are CMYK TIF files, not RGB JPG. sometimes depending on the printer's set-up RGB files convert looking VERY washed out.

if that all seems to be correct, make sure that your printer and monitor are as calibrated as possible, that can make a HUGE difference!

there aren't really any "books" to teach you how to be a packaging designer. There isn't really anywhere you can go to school. until recently, even learning about color management was a closely guarded secret. I've been working in the packaging industry for over 10 years and while I'm in a weird nitch short run branch but it means I deal with a much larger volume of new designers and lots of different art. Designing packaging is really a skill that you learn through trial and error.

anyways, if all else fails, send me an email and help you where i can.
[email protected]

 

[Alith7]

You don't say what format you sent the file to the printer in. I run a small print shop and when customers want to do their own typesetting I usually tell them to convert it to pdf format or there may be a variance in color. I would suggest you convert your product to pdf and print it yourself from the pdf file. If you send that file to the printer there should be little change if they are printing it in 4 color on a postscript printer. If you have converted it to pdf and the color seems weak, you may want to check your conversion settings. They may be set on rgb conversion which may cause your colors to fade. I am not familiar with Chinese print practices but I'm sure they can't be too different than our own. I hope this helps

If you don't know how to properly create a PDF, that can be MUCH worse than sending native files. Aside from that, with package printing, there are dozens of issues that can arise from sending only a PDF, as there are different preflight/processing steps necessary than just regular "flat" printing. the Chinese print practices aren't much different, but a few slight variances that can cause problems if your files are not built correctly.

 

[iggee002]

Alith7,

"First off, claiming they have "crappy print practices" just because you are not familiar with the methods of the package printing world is not fair to the printer or anyone else. Please, not offense meant, but you came in here claiming ignorance, which there is nothing wrong with that, everyone needs to start somewhere, but claiming someone elses processes are flawed because you are ignorant is not the right way to look at this."


Just so you don't think I am a judgemental A-hole, I have been fighting with these people for a while now, and feel quite confidant that the factory we work with "cheaps out" whenever possible. They send us one thing for samples, and then ship the same thing to customers with cheaper mats. Just yesterday we discovered that a whole shipment of magnetic pencil cups that are over seas will not stick to anything because they changed out the magnets. I have no reason to believe they would not do the same with ink. No offense meant, but just because I am ignorant of the printing process, I am not ignorant of what good business practices are.

Thank you for the advice, but please know that I do not believe that "someone elses processes are flawed because I am ignorant."

 

[danprtr]

Examine the question relative to the problem

Examine the question relative to the problem

If you stop and think a minute you'll realize this problem is impossible for you to "fix". Stop trying! Instead, look for a way to communicate with the factory. Involve your boss in this aspect of the problem and you'll be on the same side of the "problem", far better for you than you are now, the opposite side. Once this comminucation isssue is addressed, there are numerous ways to fix the problem.

Bottom line, you might be a noob in printing, but if you like what you do and want to continue, you can't be a noob in understanding issues and how to work with other people. And that is your real problem!

Email via google translation service, hire interpretor, or offer to go to China! Good Luck!

 

[Alith7]

iggee002~

fair point, I apologize. I was not aware of all that obviously. I apologize also because a lot of that was from my own irritation, I frequently deal with inexperienced designers that are quick to blame the printer for their bad files and won't listen to anyone that says otherwise. it gets frustrating!

if you can, email me the file and I'll take a look and let you know if there looks to be any issues, if there isn't I will give you some tips on what questions to ask China.