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Proofer of Your Dreams

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  • Proofer of Your Dreams

    Hi All,

    Considering any currently available proofing system, what would you choose as the proofer of your dreams? It should be quick, hold color well, be able to proof an 8 page imposition at a minimum, have a large color gamut, be driven from Prinergy, and any other useful features.

    Tell me what you would choose as the proofer of your dreams.


  • #2
    Re: Proofer of Your Dreams


    I don't really dream of proofers - is this a KBA thing -

    I learnt a long time ago that unit cost of a proof is important - it is pointless putting in a system where the copy cost is so expensive that u cant redo a proof if u need to ,

    I run 7800 Epsons and I would question why anyone would want to use anything else - all my proofs get vaildated with a Fogra strip and they do the job - they cost about £2 for a B2 proof so its agood price .



    • #3
      Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

      How about a 74 Karat for proofing?

      (I have big dreams)


      • #4
        Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

        GMG software (can take 1-bit TIFF from Prinergy); Epson 9800, GMG or Mitsubishi Proofing paper, Gretag/X-Rite Eye one for profiling, Profilmaker Pro software and a guy who knows how to fingerprint a press well. Oh, and a day or two to do it properly.
        A beautiful dream and one that will always coming true, but sadly very few printers dream this dream.
        BTW Karat 74 won't do an 8-up impo Al!


        • #5
          Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

          Hi Rob,

          That's easy:
          1. Either Samsung XL20 (£524) or Eizo CG241W (£1,000) - probably the former as it has a wider gamut and is much cheaper.
          2. FirstPROOF Pro v5 CM (£995).
          3. XRite Eye-One Pro (£495).

          > It should be quick
          It's quick to set up & configure - to profile the press you take 5 measurements with the Eye-One Pro, taking around 40-60 seconds.

          A full color accurate proof of a page circa 20" x 26" at 2400 dpi takes around 30-60 seconds (one-off), with non-color-accurate variable zoom well before that, can easily go up to an 8-page imposition (with full color accurate zoom).

          > hold color well
          Color drift is marginal (you can re-calibrate the monitor easily every week).

          > be able to proof an 8 page imposition at a minimum
          Can easily go up to an 8-page imposition (with color accurate zoom). In fact can go up to almost any size limited by 64 bit integers - that's very large.

          > have a large color gamut
          The Samsung XL20 has a gamut that covers most printing process color (CMYK) inks. The Eizo CG241W is not too far behind.

          > be driven from Prinergy
          Accepts (Harlequin PGBs, Esko LEN and) TIFF files from Prinergy.

          > any other useful features
          And certainly has lots of other useful features -
          a) Duplex mode - for checking front-to-back alignment.
          b) Progressive proofs.
          c) Lots of tools to check traps, overprints, screening, moire, ink limits,...
          d) Plate delete, merge, rotate,...
          e) Any much more...

          And one of the most important things, is that once you've bought it:
          a) Has a very low cost per proof... $0
          b) No need for consumables...
          c) Doesn't need servicing...
          d) Doesn't break down...
          e) Takes up no additional space...
          f) And more I'm sure...

          I wouldn't call it my dream, but it certainly works well.



          Andy Cave,
          Chief Executive Officer,
          Hamillroad Software Limited.


          • #6
            Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

            >BTW Karat 74 won't do an 8-up impo Al!

            Good point. Either wait for the 102 Karat, or do tiling on the 74 now.



            • #7
              Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

              Hi All,

              I am well aware of the Karat, and it is an excellent proofer, though the initial investment might be a bit more than most are willing to spend for a proofing system. :-) It's 4-page limitation is the show stopper for me in this case, however.

              We've got the Kodak Press Proof here, and Matchprint Virtual as well, so we've got soft proofing covered. I'm looking for a hard proofing system, with the aforementioned qualities. I've got a couple leads, and I'll keep this question open a little longer in the hopes I'll get more.

              Thanks for all the feedback so far.


              • #8
                Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                Having read the posts I must come back and comment -

                proofs without a label confirming that they conform to a standard can only be treated as a content proof -



                • #9
                  Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                  Hi Rob,

                  Do you want 8 page imposition (4 pages up) and not 16 page backed up proof?

                  If you want the former and want simple and consistent with minimal to no maintenance issues of streaking and relinearizations and unbelievably consistent color, then buy a Veris. These proofs are for your demo center use for selling presses, right? And you're not necessarily looking to save 2 dollars per page on every print job, right?

                  If you want the latter, then you have to get an Epson and drive it with a rip and buy double sided sheet paper and not rolls. Rip vendors include: Kodak, EFI, Oris, GMG.

                  Good Luck,

                  Edited by: roger on Feb 15, 2008 8:22 AM


                  • #10
                    Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                    Hi All,

                    Probably over 90 percent of what we print here is single sided, so I guess I should have said I need an 8-up proofer, not an 8-page proofer. We are using these proofs in conjunction with press demos, so it is correct that we are not too concerned about the unit cost of each proof, so long as the cost is reasonable. We are wanting something that is representative of what any of our customers might use.

                    After the research I've done so far, I am leaning towards a GMG driven HP Z2100.

                    Does anyone have any experience with either of those, good or bad? If so, I'd love to hear what you've got to say.



                    • #11
                      Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                      I run 2 epson 9880/9800 with Oris in front to color manage and very happy with it. But if you require a dot proof this would not be an option for you. I replaced an approval with these and as far as color it is a night and day difference...


                      • #12
                        Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                        We are dreaming here right? So cost is no object when dreaming...
                        So let me take this as far as I think it can go, I would love to see an actual inked proof, spot colors, varnish and all. I envision a digital re-writable "plate" that lays down the same inks the press uses. Having it gold plated would be a nice touch too.

                        We run a Epson 9800 with the EFI/Best RIP in-house but we are not a print facility. From a customer perspective, right now I really like the newer Fuji dye sublimation system out there, reminds me of the Match Prints we used to get.


                        • #13
                          Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                          Keep dreaming... :-)


                          • #14
                            Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                            Hi again,
                            >>After the research I've done so far, I am leaning towards a GMG driven HP Z2100. <<

                            This combination would deliver great press-to-proof and vice-versa matches, no problem. Here in Australia Epson has the lion's share of the proof engine market but the new HPs are certainly coming on strong and the built-in spectro is nice, and it's fast too - good for demos.
                            If you can demo a press with an exact match to proof, the buying customer is instantly convinced and you sell the press, which I guess is your aim. GMG will do it, no question so my call is, get close to GMG America and make them your partner in supporting KBA Rapida press installs.

                            Ref the post from Firstproof on a 100% soft proofing solution: no doubt it's a good system but it is naiive to think we can do without hard proofs. In some cases, yes, but the proofing Rip vendors would not be selling so many copies if soft proofing was the only way. Soft proofs only are also a recipe for high litigatrion costs in the event of a dispute on colour. How are you going to prove what the customer signed off on my friend?
                            The answer is the two will continue live in a parallel universe.
                            Best regards


                            • #15
                              Re: Proofer of Your Dreams

                              Hi Rob,
                              The proofer of your dreams eh ! Well you have got the right RIP in GMG which is excellent in terms of 4D Color Management and Full Gamut Spot color reproduction too. However the accuracy and repeatability relies of course on regular re-calibration. I can see why then you have gone for the HPZ series with its on-board spectro for easy calibration. However HP are a way behind Epson in terms of ink properties and speed. The Epson inks are much much less affected by Metamerism, suffer no bronzing (or Gloss differential) and are a lot more scratch resistant when being handled. Also with the new Ultrachorme Vivid Magenta inks set the colour gamut is much greater than the Z2100. At the moment an off board spectrophotometer such as the X-Rite iSis would be the quickest and easiest way the re-cal this device and while this process is taking place you can still run proofs unlike the HP which has to wait for the 533 colour patches to dry before the device reads them in quite slowly. This iterative approach to re-calibration can take several goes and so time drags on with the HP and the patch sizes are huge in comparison to the Epson's iSis patches so lots more media is wasted (go for GMG's own 250gsm Proofing stock as it is super good and FOGRA cert'd).

                              My ideal 8Up Proofing System would be GMG Dotptoof driving a 9880 with an on-board Spectro for automated timed calibration. Now don't quote me on this but there's a strong rumour going around that my dream (conerning the Epson anyway) may not be far away !!!!

                              Best of luck,


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