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New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

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  • New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

    I've read a lot in this forum in regards to people asking which is the best direction to head. Most of the replies ask that the Post-er give information about their shop. So, I will attempt to do just that.

    We currently have a 20x28 Sakurai 5-color press with an inline coater. Our current platesetter for this machine is a ESKO DPX/4 Poly platesetter. Our PDF Workflow is EFI OneFlow 2.0 using integrated imposition. This Flow also drives our Epson 7600 and 9600 for Proofing. Our press was profiled last January by a very reputable company (I don't want to use their name and get in trouble) and we are Gracol 6 standardized. The proofers were profiled to match the press, but they have always failed in that regard. (no matter) We are the kind of print shop that runs everything that comes through the door. We push about 600 plates a month for the Sakurai. We do have a smaller 4-color Hamada, and some Abdick 9800 Series, which we will continue to feed with a DPX platesetter we have had since 2000.

    I am in charge of investigating which way to go for all three areas I mentioned in the Subject line. I've seen Apoge X 4.0 in action at a local company, and I was nicely impressed. I've also seen Heidelberg's Prinect system at this years Graph Expo and I really liked it alot. I have a webinar with Kodak Prinergy 4 tomorrow. I've read good things about Prinergy, but I haven't seen it. we will also be meeting with Rampage and Screen reps. For Platesetters, we've narrowed down to Agfa, Fuji and Kodak. We really would like to go Chem free, as well. We would like to get everything from the same company. It's possible that we'll move into a Komori 6-up 29" press, but that would be down the road. However, we want the Metal CTP to be able to make plates for that press. We do not have any JDF compliant equipment, but you never know what the future holds.

    I'll stop because I can go on and on. Please posts any relevant thoughts you may have.


  • #2
    Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

    Here is my two cents Fletch. There is only one company at the moment IMHO that can satisfy you and support you into the future. Fuji.

    1. They can sell Screen equipment, the best in the world for reliability and the Screen platesetter will image nearly anybody's thermal plate. Fuji can also handle violet if you prefer but my vote would be for thermal.
    2. The Fuji plates are wonderful, both positive processed and negative processless.
    3. The Screen Trueflow now has licensed the Adobe Print Engine and during tests, it appears to be rocket fast over the ApogeeX and Creo 4 solutions (or so I'm told but have as of yet not tested myself).
    4. Your biggest DFE issue going forward will be transparency and how it is interpreted by your rip. Secondly, the iPod generation designers coming on stream who will punish you with their so called creativity. You will need umpteen horsepower in your computers to deal with this. And all the expertise you can muster.

    John W


    • #3
      Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

      We are also looking at a new Platesetter along with new plate technology and possible workflow change.
      What I can tell you is that Rampage's system along with support are great.

      John B


      • #4
        Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

        Is Rampage now using the Adobe PDF Print Engine?



        • #5
          Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

          We have brochures for the 'Dart' and Brillia' series of platesetters from Fuji. Are those made by Screen, or will they sell us an actual Screen product? If they are not the Screen platesetters, which Screen plateseters are you referring to?



          • #6
            Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

            It varies in name by country; I'm in Canada.
            Basically, Screen USA (Dainippon Screen) is one of the largest single hardware and software suppliers worldwide. They make hardware everything! Years ago, vendors would fingerpoint at the other man's machinery as the problem so I decided to find any firm that handled all things at that time; cameras, light tables, densitometers, scanners, CEPS etc etc. Screen was the only company! It was the 1980's!

            They manufacture thermal platesetters in all kinds of sizes from 4up, 6up, 8up and larger such as Platerite 8600Z; Fuji's (Screen made) device is called a Dart or Javelin. Go to shows you their products or for theirs. So Fuji's thermal devices are Screen manufactured devices with just the branding label changed.
            Fuji also provides violet platestters called Saber which are not Screen made I believe.

            For plates, it is the Fuji consumable, Brillia (violet); thermal PJ or Pro-T (processless) that runs well on these machines. There may be a violet processless in time but not yet AFAIK.
            Significant to you may be whether you want to use positive acting or negative acting and what are the ramifications for chemistry removals etc. In my limited experience, some brands of plates run in 'dirtier' chemistry and the processor servicing must then be more frequent. Also to consider is the amount of power required; some plates require more power to expose. Some plates are notorious for background staining, others not. Some ctp plates need specific press chemistry to run efficiently, others do not.

            We have two plants running two brands of plates so I have some knowledge of both. My personal preference is for a negative acting plate for specific reasons of the shop I'm in. My thermal choices are; firstly, Fuji Pro-T or secondly, Agfa Azura/Amigo. There is no nega thermal plate from Kodak yet.

            John W


            • #7
              Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

              Hi John,
              Thanks for the very informative insight. Just curious, I went to your website
              since you sounded like you had quite a bit of experience with the Screen/Fuji equipment, workflow and plates. Is it up to date? Other than the Pictro, it looks like you are a strictly a Kodak/Creo shop? Are your opinions based on experience or research?


              • #8
                Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

                > Last update: Tuesday, May 27, 2003

                Looks like his site is a bit out of date... I hope he updated his computers too...

                > 5 G-4 MAC Workstation
                > Four Power Mac 9500 Workstations
                > One Power Mac 6100/66 Workstation
                > Four Syquest 200 MB Hard Drive
                > Two 1.3 GD Optical Drive, Dat Tape


                • #9
                  Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

                  Rampage is Harlequin based RIP (Global Graphics), competitor to Adobe.


                  • #10
                    Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

                    John, are you running Fuji and Agfa plates in your shop or Kodak.
                    I see bunch of Kodak processors there on your web site.

                    Are you on Prinergy 3?
                    Adobe PDF Print engine appears to be a lot faster than regular CPSI engine in any Adobe rip workflow.
                    I can't imagine that Screen's workflow with Adobe PDF Print engine is a lot faster than Prinergy 4 with Adobe PDF Print Engine maybe Oracle db is slowing it down?
                    Anyone tried both and compared?


                    • #11
                      Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

                      Anyone can confirm is that Trueflow SE work faster than other Adobe Pdf Engine?
                      Next month, my machine 8300 and trueflow SE will come.


                      • #12
                        Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

                        Hi again,

                        The info you found was our commercial plant. It is a Kodak Creo set up. I work in the folding carton plant a few miles away. We are a Fuji shop running OS9 and OSX (Tiger) on G4 DP's, HqRip and Black Magic to Epson and HP plotters. Now before you LOL, realize that as a carton printer we do hundreds of reprints from about 29,000 legacy files;many are OS9 files. The cartons must match the previous runs exactly so doing it the same way is imperative, IMO. We do of course use scoop curves and negative scoop curves to get better control especially when printing on recycled cardboard.
                        We still plot film for any job that has a change and was produced via a film route.
                        New jobs are set up for ftp or ctp, which ever makes the most sense (read $$). Only the rip set up varies really between the two. Everything goes through Black Magic.
                        Now because I want a negative acting plate, my choices are Fuji, (we do not use Agfa (because of a desired technical issue with the Pro-T), but Agfa might be an alternative for others who want a negative ctp plate). Screen, because their equipment is second to none IMO and I have bought millions worth from them over the past 22 years so I think my opinion is quite sound. Others seem to agree. I am saying you will never go wrong with Screen equipment and Fuji consumables. I am not saying the others don't work.


                        • #13
                          Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!


                          The test I spoke of was not done in either of our plants. The Creo and Apogee both took about seven minutes to complete, the Trueflow, about one and a half. I was told by my source that the comparison was using current versions of all three systems. That is all the info I have.
                          I plan to do some asking at Graphics Canada week after next. I will let you know what I can confirm about it.
                          Best regards,


                          • #14
                            Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

                            Thanks John,

                            That gives me an idea, why can't we come up with our test files as a users and test it??
                            There is bunch of people on this forum who are running different workflows, that will give us better idea of speed and compatibility.

                            I bought in the past PIA-GATF workflow comparison but that doesn't tell you anything.
                            Real life test on real life files with real life users is what counts.


                            • #15
                              Re: New PDF Workflow, Metal CTP and Proofing solutions!

                              I'm game... If one of you can make a PDF testfile, I'm willing to put it through my system.

                              I'm using Prinect MetaDimension (Heidelberg).


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