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  • #16
    Originally posted by arossetti View Post

    One thing I have been following is the use of RGB scanning to control color on press, which could look at a live image area and compare the current scan to previous or a PDF. Eliminating spectral measurements but also eliminating the need for color bars. Is this what you are hinting at? Some of these vision systems claim to be nearing the accuracy of a spectro...
    I'm hinting at much more than that. Remember that the native authoring app has all the data about the document, and that the data about the plates is known, and the print condition is known, and there is historical performance data that is available. Instead of seeing the process as isolated events that are managed individually (which IMHO is the case now) the entire process can be made relational and hence make the process from document creation to final result more deterministic. I did some preliminary proof of concept work at creo which was positive - but then came Kodak.

    Heidelberg is currently probably in the best position to actually make this work, and they already have many of the tools - but, for whatever reason, they haven't appeared to have connected the dots. It's funny to think that the "internet of everything" is on the path to doing this with the evolving technology in "smart" refrigerators. It might be hard to see the connection between smart refrigerators and printing but....

    This discussion really should be in a separate thread.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by gordo View Post

      I'm hinting at much more than that. Remember that the native authoring app has all the data about the document, and that the data about the plates is known, and the print condition is known, and there is historical performance data that is available. Instead of seeing the process as isolated events that are managed individually (which IMHO is the case now) the entire process can be made relational and hence make the process from document creation to final result more deterministic. I did some preliminary proof of concept work at creo which was positive - but then came Kodak.

      Heidelberg is currently probably in the best position to actually make this work, and they already have many of the tools - but, for whatever reason, they haven't appeared to have connected the dots. It's funny to think that the "internet of everything" is on the path to doing this with the evolving technology in "smart" refrigerators. It might be hard to see the connection between smart refrigerators and printing but....

      This discussion really should be in a separate thread.

      Oh yes, make a new cartoon thread on this topic. :-)

      Was your work on this subject general enough to be able to deal with any ink set, screen, paper and any printing condition or was it limited to CMYK and specific standards?

      I would also add that there is no job security for innovators. :-(
      Last edited by Erik Nikkanen; 01-09-2017, 09:57 PM.

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      • #18
        I personally have job security. Not because what I know, but more because I have more experienced than anyone cares to remember or even knew. Limited marketed, but a precious jewel for those who have a need to approach craftsmanship. And there are many that need, and do not even realize their need because they are wrapped up in their own selfishness and perhaps greed. I do not posses these traits, honestly. I just want to leave giving more than I have reaped from a wonderful industry when I originally subscribed. If I can teach, train a younger generation to keep the synergies going, I will have been fulfilled and perhaps create some partial legacy. This is all I seek. I won't find these beings on the west bank for instance, because they have an alternate agenda that is not humanitarian for the successors of our planet. From the heart....

        D Ink Man

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Erik Nikkanen View Post

          Oh yes, make a new cartoon thread on this topic. :-)

          Was your work on this subject general enough to be able to deal with any ink set, screen, paper and any printing condition or was it limited to CMYK and specific standards?

          I would also add that there is no job security for innovators. :-(
          General. At the time we were looking at cmyk (you've got to start somewhere). In this context, specific standards are just part of the refinement of the original file creation and later execution.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by gordo View Post

            Indeed, you were the inspiration for this 'toon so it seems only fitting that you be the face of job security ;-)
            Geeze . . . I feel so honored . . . and to think I've been trying to get outta here for years now . . .you make it all so clear why I am still here and I thought it was because I am self enslaved . . .
            "If you think you are too small to be effective
            you have never been in the dark with a mosquito."

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            • #21
              Over the course of my 30 plus years in a sheetfed pressroom environment, and Im sure before I arrived on the scene, engineers, bean counters, efficiency experts, plant auditors, prepress techs, and all the suits lined up for miles, have been trying to turn the craft of ink on paper into a predictable, and repeatable process. Over them same 30 plus years I've seen tremendous progress with offset technology. Advancements in closed loop inking is one of the highlights of the progress that has impressed me the most. I can even see glimmers of benefit with Erics ink blade technology. The challenge as I see it is that as new technology is introduced, new variables are brought into the process. Just to name a few...
              1. Quality of paper is to a point now where you can not count on extended run times due to the need to continuously stop the press to clean up something. That something being either plates, blankets, or rollers interrupts the stable emulsion that I think we can all agree on to be so important to consistent color. Poor quality paper contaminates not only plates, blankets, and rollers but also leaches into fountain solutions and contaminates it also. This contamination has a negative effect that is IMHO is very under reported.

              2. Quality of all consumables makes for a moving target when it comes to getting a handle on the ink on paper process. When I talk of consumables quality I mostly think of inconsistent product from batch to batch. Ive seen far too much of this. Press crews can learn work arounds for inferior product if it is consistently inferior in the same way. Estimators will even begin to adjust pricing to reflect these work arounds.

              There is much temptation for the bean counters to save a few bucks here and there by buying CRAP. Crap in results in crap out.
              There is also the industry wide thinking that with all the new technology hiring truly skilled pressroom personnel is not quite the priority that is used to be. The thinking being that the technology will carry the press crew. To some extent this is true but I suggest upper management takes a good hard look at just how much they save when they have a multicolor press that bills out in the neighborhood of 300 plus per hour and have it manned by rookies. Imagine a mix of cutting edge technology with seasoned pros manning that technology???

              I believe we are at a point of diminishing returns when it comes to offset technology. When the industry begins to demand that our suppliers of paper and consumables return to the days of manufacturing a consistently quality product for a fair price, then the benefits of all this technology can be fully realized. When upper management begins to see the benefits of manning their high tech pressroom acquisitions with fully competent press crews capable of getting the most out of their equipment things will change for the better.

              Last edited by turbotom1052; 01-12-2017, 05:58 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by turbotom1052 View Post
                Over the course of my 30 plus years in a sheetfed pressroom environment, and Im sure before I arrived on the scene, engineers, bean counters, efficiency experts, plant auditors, prepress techs, and all the suits lined up for miles, have been trying to turn the craft of ink on paper into a predictable, and repeatable process. Over them same 30 plus years I've seen tremendous progress with offset technology. Advancements in closed loop inking is one of the highlights of the progress that has impressed me the most. I can even see glimmers of benefit with Erics ink blade technology. The challenge as I see it is that as new technology is introduced, new variables are brought into the process. Just to name a few...
                1. Quality of paper is to a point now where you can not count on extended run times due to the need to continuously stop the press to clean up something. That something being either plates, blankets, or rollers interrupts the stable emulsion that I think we can all agree on to be so important to consistent color. Poor quality paper contaminates not only plates, blankets, and rollers but also leaches into fountain solutions and contaminates it also. This contamination has a negative effect that is IMHO is very under reported.

                2. Quality of all consumables makes for a moving target when it comes to getting a handle on the ink on paper process. When I talk of consumables quality I mostly think of inconsistent product from batch to batch. Ive seen far too much of this. Press crews can learn work arounds for inferior product if it is consistently inferior in the same way. Estimators will even begin to adjust pricing to reflect these work arounds.

                There is much temptation for the bean counters to save a few bucks here and there by buying CRAP. Crap in results in crap out.
                There is also the industry wide thinking that with all the new technology hiring truly skilled pressroom personnel is not quite the priority that is used to be. The thinking being that the technology will carry the press crew. To some extent this is true but I suggest upper management takes a good hard look at just how much they save when they have a multicolor press that bills out in the neighborhood of 300 plus per hour and have it manned by rookies. Imagine a mix of cutting edge technology with seasoned pros manning that technology???

                I believe we are at a point of diminishing returns when it comes to offset technology. When the industry begins to demand that our suppliers of paper and consumables return to the days of manufacturing a consistently quality product for a fair price, then the benefits of all this technology can be fully realized. When upper management begins to see the benefits of manning their high tech pressroom acquisitions with fully competent press crews capable of getting the most out of their equipment things will change for the better.
                Sir, you have said a lot! And you have spoken PURE TRUTH.

                As short as 30 years ago the conundrum you present here was handled by the ink men. Truly, I present.

                It was the job and task of the ink supplier true technicians to interact, evaluate, troubleshoot and sometimes share a beer together at the end of the day. Note: The beer would only come after the press/pressroom was running at maximum efficiency.

                Then what happened? The MEGA sized corporations (names unmentioned) gobbled up the medium to small size ink companies that provided these services. These MEGA fellows did not purchase, acquire the little guys for their expertises. They grabbed them because of the business they possessed. They did not and still do not realize that the reason the smaller entities had the business was because they provided but two things.

                1) Product > An ink product that fit a printing machine and provided the necessary runnabilty and printability to produce quality reproductions for their customer. Henceforth, the ink suppliers job was to provide CONSISTENCY of product. That is all it is.

                2) Service > A boots on ground 'LIVE PERSON', that was available 24-7-365 to SERVICE their customer and provide assistance, help, consultation, reformulation and anything necessary to the point of admonition. It was the responsibility of the ink man to earn the business via these methodologies.

                And guess what? It worked!! The pressroom ran like a well oiled machine and the ink company received TOP DOLLAR per pound for their ink because of what they did. Selling price was not an issue. The printer paid whatever price the ink company sold it at, because of the total package that was delivered and that was delivered consistently.

                Now to today. For the most part, the bean coiner as you refer to, decides to buy the CHEAPEST priced ink he can find. What are the repercussions from this?

                Well sir, your reply I just provided quote to, explains everything.


                D Ink Man

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by D Ink Man View Post
                  Now to today. For the most part, the bean coiner as you refer to, decides to buy the CHEAPEST priced ink he can find. What are the repercussions from this?

                  Well sir, your reply I just provided quote to, explains everything.
                  A small addition from russia with love:
                  not only price is counted – even if other consumable work better and priced lower none of the middle/upper management are willing to change for it just because they do not want to change anything. I was really emabarrassed when i first saw how eagerly they ate shit from fake ink vendor technologists just not to change anything

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    More confirming sentiment.........

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hello Gentlemen,

                      I wish to remind..........

                      I wish to thank "turbotom an D Ink Man" for their excellent commentary.

                      In my opinion these 4 fundamental introductions, propelled

                      Lithography into its present dominant position in printing.

                      1) Pre-sensitized Plates 2) Compressible Blankets

                      3) Squeese-roller Dampening Systems 4) Computer Controlled Inking.

                      Regards, Alois
                      Last edited by Alois Senefelder; 01-13-2017, 03:52 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Alois Senefelder View Post
                        Hello Gentlemen,

                        I wish to remind..........

                        I wish to thank "turbotom an D Ink Man" for their excellent commentary.

                        In my opinion these 4 fundamental introductions, propelled

                        Lithography into its present dominant position in printing.

                        1) Pre-sensitized Plates 2) Compressible Blankets

                        3) Squeese-roller Dampening Systems 4) Computer Controlled Inking.

                        Regards, Alois
                        Alois,
                        all great advancements. If I had to choose one of the three Id have to say that the continuous flow dampening was the biggest. But even that was not without flaws. Looking back and comparing a modern dampening system with the old school ductor style system you must admit that there is something to be said for the old inverted water bottle delivering a fresh and uncontaminated supply of fountain solution. Why hasn't a press engineer stepped up and married the 2 systems??? Instead they have used all kinds of fancy filtration systems to address the problem. Seems like it would be easier to prevent the problem from occurring, rather than fixing it after it has already occurred.
                        Last edited by turbotom1052; 01-14-2017, 03:55 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          And I must say that the ink transfer blade concept conceived by Erik is a lost tool to date. I believe in the genius of him and wish through great savvy that a company like Heidelberg, Komori and/or Man Roland would latch on with him and develop it to it's fullest capable fruition. I know it is frustrating and I know his passion for something that could truly send offset printing to a higher level. You never know, it could happen.

                          D

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by turbotom1052 View Post

                            Looking back and comparing a modern dampening system with the old school ductor style system you must admit that there is something to be said for the old inverted water bottle delivering a fresh and uncontaminated supply of fountain solution. Why hasn't a press engineer stepped up and married the 2 systems??? Instead they have used all kinds of fancy filtration systems to address the problem. Seems like it would be easier to prevent the problem from occurring, rather than fixing it after it has already occurred.
                            Yes, this has great potential and has been one of my interests to improve the process. Fixing the fountain solution problem can only be done when the ink feed problem is fixed where that ink feed is not affected by any changes in fount solution supply.

                            Many studies and tests have been done to show that the lithographic process on the plate will work quite well when the fount solution is added at different locations in the press. But with the existing ink feed method used now, applying fount solution for from the ink feed helps to reduce its affect on ink transfer into the roller train.

                            I believe also that applying fountain solutions right at the plate and/or first form roller, causes a number of problems with printing a non uniform emulsion and with toning issues where ink is sheared off the ink rollers and is dispersed into the fountain solution due to specific design of dampening units.

                            The issues related to systems to filter, cool, maintaining some kind of chemistry in the tanks is only due to the need to recirculate the solution due to the design of the dampening system.

                            I agree that fountain solution will be better applied if it is directly introduced into the roller train without any recycling but without any tray used either. No tanks and no chemistry/conductivity maintenance required.

                            IMO this is the way to go but it can not be done without the ink feed problem corrected. When the ink feed problem is corrected and independent of changes in fountain solution feed, then the fountain solution feed does not have to be so critical.

                            Press engineers are in a bad situation, which is partly their own fault. Engineers use common practice or theory to design new technology. If they don't have the theory all they are left with is common practice. But even learning the theory is no guarantee. I can tell you that two new presses designed recently in Spain and Holland were designed by engineers that participated in a two day seminar I gave them on press design related to Colour control and predictability. They even tested my ITB and knew it worked. But these engineers just designed these new presses basically doing what was done before and the totally avoided to do the critical step that was required to change the process.

                            Why did that happen? I believe that the engineers that work for press manufacturers are NOT driven to make fundamental improvements but tend to be hiding out in an industry that does not demand much out of them. They are not excited about doing the anything revolutionary. I have had the same type of feedback from engineers in all the major press manufacturing companies. They don't care and don't want to be doing anything really different. They are not curious. They are just happy to do their day job and then go home. Their management never asks for more and in fact their management even puts up barriers to discourage any little interest in doing something special.

                            There are no Skunkworks in the printing industry where scientists and engineers can try out all kinds of concepts for offset with the goal of obtaining practical and revolutionary solutions. I have never found any group of people that actually wanted and were allowed to do anything truly new and different. Even TAGA still have papers presented that are faulty and demonstrate that the authors have no idea of how things work and they don't really want to know. They just like the prestige of presenting papers to groups of other people who are not able to understand and create much new knowledge that is actually valid and applicable.

                            Engineers and scientists with talent do not go into the printing industry and if they do, they leave very quickly.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hello Gentlemen and turbotom,


                              "T" I disagree with your choice, of the 4 fundamental introductions. I choose

                              Pre-sensitized Plates which herald the dawn for the future of Lithography.

                              Previously the gold standard plate used was the Deep Etch Plate, which

                              took 3 hours to make a B1 size plate, the other 3 fundamentals came much later.

                              Regards, Alois



                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Erik,

                                I repeat myself again ! without the Chemistry of Fountain Solutions

                                Lithography would Not Work !

                                Regards, Alois

                                Comment

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