2 in 1 fount

[Bigbadlee]

Hi there,

We have recently been approached by a rep who was singing the praises of a product called 2 in 1 fount by BMM Print. At the moment we run a 5 col SM74 using a Technotrans Beta D unit. Chemically we are using Saphira soft fount at 3% and IPA at 7.5% with a conductivity of around 1200. We also have a well maintained RO unit. I am considering giving it a trial but I would appreciate anyone comments or experience of this product.

As a last note, we are not having any problems on the press

Thanks

 

[Albert Noel]

well, if it isnt broken...

 

[Bigbadlee]

well, if it isnt broken...

I hear what you're saying but reading the data sheet on this makes it sound like the Holy Grail! Less water, less ink, sharper dot, higher gloss and cleaner impression cylinders. I was just hoping for some feedback from people who've used/are using it.

 

[Albert Noel]

actually, i would love to hear how this turns out because we've been having trouble with the fuji/anchor products we currently use and i would LOVE to find something to replace it with, especially if it's the holy grail

 

[nhprinter]

Hi Big,

First of all I'm always surprised to see how many people on these forums are still using Alcohol. We stopped using it in this area about 10 - 15 years ago. Even when we did use it we only ran 4% max.

With that said........For what it's worth.......I remember when we made the switch to an alcohol sub we were told to do it at the same time we changed our dampening rollers. You might not see the benefits of the new solution with older harder rollers.

Good Luck,
Dave

 

[Bigbadlee]

We've booked the guys from BMM Print to come in at the begining of February. They've promised me a pain free change over (yeah right!) with minimal tweaking on-press. I have to be honest and say one of the reasons we decided to try this fount was the increases in dampening through the shifts. We would start at around 18% on a morning and this would rise to around 40% by 11.00pm. Having never used the Alcolor system before I was wondering if this is normal. The press is running at 12-13,000 all day.

 

[Albert Noel]

you're quite lucky, we can start at 55-60% depending on the unit and and be as high as 80% at the end of the day. (which i'm sure is a fault of the anchor product)

are you in north america or somewhere else?
i wouldnt mind giving this stuff a shot if my other options dont work out

 

[Bigbadlee]

We are in England where the water is quite hard, although having an RO system makes this irrelevant. We are using Heidelberg Saphira Inks also (they came as part of the new buy pack) and we found them very good. Apparently the rep for Inkland (the outlet for 2 in 1 fount) said they tested the fount in 10 print companys around the area and everyone has ordered it.

BMM Print have a website, here it is:

http://www.2 in 1 fountain solution. co. http:www.2in1fountainsolution ://2and1fountainsolution uk http://bmmprint.co.uk http//www.2in1fountainsolution.com; http://wwwbmmprint.co.uk http://www2in1.com http://wwwfountainsolution.com http://wwwfountain

 

[Alois Senefelder]

2 in 1 fount solution !!!!

2 in 1 fount solution !!!!

Hi Bigbadlee, Not true !!!! there are soft water areas in the UK (North of England)

Since the time of the 1st Crusade including "Indiana Jones" Lithographers have been looking for the "Holy Grail" regarding "Dampening Fluids" --- by all means give the 2 in 1 a trial -- but if you are not having "Problems" just stay with your present Fountain Solution.

Regards, Alois

 

[Bigbadlee]

Hi Bigbadlee, Not true !!!! there are soft water areas in the UK (North of England)

Since the time of the 1st Crusade including "Indiana Jones" Lithographers have been looking for the "Holy Grail" regarding "Dampening Fluids" --- by all means give the 2 in 1 a trial -- but if you are not having "Problems" just stay with your present Fountain Solution.

Regards, Alois

Well Alois, we are based in the north of England and our water supply is quite hard. You'll probably find that softer water is found in the south of England. However this is not a hard and fast rule.

We have to put our water through a softener before the RO filter otherwise we would have to change it very frequently.

Cheers

 

[BMM Print Ltd]

Hi Lee, we look forward to seeing you in February for your trial with Michael. Regards Carol

 

[loopyg66]

albert

albert

300's tend to run higher on their dampeners compared to most presses. running between 50 and 80 is not unheard of.

fountain solution is not necessarily the reason you have to increase your damp speeds throughout the shift. ink pickup has a lot to do with it as well, also pressroom conditions (temp, humidity,etc). and also the condition of your rollers. are your rollers chilled? if it's a 300, probably not.

loopy

 

[loopyg66]

2 in 1

2 in 1

I have a hard time believing you won't need to put in softer dampener rollers for running alcohol free.

 

[Albert Noel]

300's tend to run higher on their dampeners compared to most presses. running between 50 and 80 is not unheard of.

fountain solution is not necessarily the reason you have to increase your damp speeds throughout the shift. ink pickup has a lot to do with it as well, also pressroom conditions (temp, humidity,etc). and also the condition of your rollers. are your rollers chilled? if it's a 300, probably not.

loopy

no chilled rollers here. maybe roller hardness has to do with it.
just seems high considering it used to run in the 50s all the time

 

[Bigbadlee]

I have a hard time believing you won't need to put in softer dampener rollers for running alcohol free.

Loopy,

From what I've read, the 2 in 1 Fount is not alcohol free. It uses N-propyl alcohol (NPA) instead of IPA.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Roller Hardness

Roller Hardness

Hello everyone,

Re - Roller Hardness, While this is a important roller property, the clean and satin-like surface
is more Important than its "Hardness"

Overtime the Roller's porous surface become "Clogged" this contibutes to poor "Ink Transfer" also increases the "Hardness" of the roller

Regards, Alois

 

[alan westwood]

not the holy grail!!!

not the holy grail!!!

Hi Lee,

I struggled with 2in1 for around 4 months a while ago, it is alcohol based, although not IPA but 80% NPA. Worked ok on the Octoman web but hey, if you can’t get a fount to work on a web, you are in the wrong job! We had a Speedmaster 102 6colour, we used a fount dosed at 2.5% and IPA dosed at 4%-6%, water levels were quite low at between 15%-18% throughout the day. 2in1 was supposed to reduce our water levels but to be honest, at the levels we ran at, they were never going to be much less than we already ran at. Principle of lithography does require SOME water! We had a problem getting consistent dosage of 2in1 through the Technotrans Alcosmart unit to begin with, the rep from Algraphic supplied a conversion chart that should have fixed the problem but dosage was still erratic and not that accurate. I looked at the website as you suggested for bmmprint (who they?) and I would say that if the recalibration instructions are correct, there would be no need for a correction chart! Any case, with today’s modern presses and the accuracy of IPA/Fount doser systems, the attraction of a one pack fount/alcohol product loses its novelty and if you can’t mix a crude solution by hand to run a press, why are you in this job? Incidentally, see they claim to help clients to go continuously greener, importing by the container load from South Africa gives it a HUGE carbon footprint!!! Other problems encountered were steels inking up constantly, needing to be cleaned several times per shift, we also used to get a crystallisation around the pipe joints on the main tank. Did have some excessive plate wear, probably a third down on normal run lengths but you may not notice if you have run lengths of less than 10,000. Don’t know if this was due to the crystallisation. Biggest complaint from the minders was the smell, god-awful! We had a problem running a job with a 300 screen, just kept losing the dot. Cleaned the tanks and went back to fount and IPA and although not perfect, gave a better result. Never went back to 2in1 after that. Nail in its coffin was the price, far more expensive than fount/IPA for the possible benefits so the M.D. decided to knock it on the head. Sad to say, the company closed shortly after. In today’s recessionary climate, even more essential to watch the cost of consumables. Not sure about the FOGRA certificate, looks a bit suspect with the high Nitrate content? The MSDS looks a bit evil, probably no more than IPA though. As a now redundant lithographer, anyone interested in a decent hands on machine room manager, please get in touch! Good luck in any case. Don't know if this helps with 2in 1, any questions, please ask, see if I can remember anything else.

 

[Bigbadlee]

not the holy grail!!

not the holy grail!!

Hi Alan,

Thanks for your feedback, it's very appreciated. It will give me something to beat the guys from BMM over the head with should things go pear-shaped!.

Seriously though, we've never had any problems with our existing fount (Heidelberg Saphira) so the problems you had sound horrendous. We can run 2 shifts and only have to clean the pan roller ends. If we experience anything like what you did I think my boss would do as yours did.

We are booked in for this Wednesday so I will post the results

Thanks

 

[BMM Print Ltd]

Hi BigBadLee - We sent this as a private message to Alan, but see you have just posted so thought we would post a copy for your information. Regards Carol

Good Morning Alan,

We see you have posted some comments on your experience with our 2in1 Fountain Solution. We are sorry that Algraphic did not support you correctly therefore causing the issues you appeared to have. You are correct in saying that Algraphic Supplies are no longer trading and we have now opened our own branch in the UK called BMM Print.

In answer to your questions regarding what happened on your press we respond as follows:

"The calibrations are required because of the different Vapour pressure of NPA against IPA. Having a lower Evaporation rate, NPA is more difficult to detect as it give off less fumes (hence less VOC in the press room)

True you import a Carbon footprint of 80% VOC against the 100% Carbon footprint of imported IPA (or even manufacturing locally on imported raw materials) whichever way it is not a carbon footprint increase.

In these recessionary days as you state it is better to watch the costs of consumables and by stocking one product instead of two you can keep the cost of stock down as have more control. The cost of 2 in 1 supplied by BMM Print is comparable to IPA + fount mix (maybe Algraphic were charging a higher price because of its benefits?)

The crystallization around the pipe joints could be a slight leak which would go undetected with IPA feed (because of the rapid evaporation) but would leave a trace of the fount with 2 in 1 fount because it contains the fount chemicals which of course IPA has not got?

As 2 in 1 fount keeps steel rollers and back cylinders clean the constant inking up could be because the fount was running erratically (as mentioned by you with the doser problems) (under-dosing when dirty rollers or overdosing causing emulsification). Emulsification would also cause higher water levels though I do agree a good minder always keeps his water feed to a minimum.

Excessive plate wear can only be caused by over dosing which would tie in with your erratic feed. We have a printer running 225 000 sheets every quarter on solid golds and they use 2 printing plates with 2in1 whereas he used 19 plates on this run before. They are on a Heidelberg 102 6 Colour the same as yours which confirms the dosing issues you were experiencing.

With regard to the smell, neat NPA is no more offensive than neat IPA. When the fountain solution is diluted 90% with water how can it smell more than neat Blanket & roller Wash
(mineral turps) or any of the stronger ink solvents in every day use in the press room.

With regard to the Fogra certificate and the nitrate comments we used nitrates extensively at Howson -Algraphy with all founts for 50 years because it is a corrosion inhibitor for Aluminium! Many presses in U.K. owe their long life through using Howson- Algraphy chemicals and 2 in 1 fount maintains the proud tradition. No presses using 2in1 throughout the world have reported any maintenance problems in the last 10 years.

With regard to the MSDS being evil although as you say “ the same as IPA” I agree all MSDS look evil because the comments are on the RMC in use, in its neat form, not when diluted and dissolved in a liquid formula.

A recent example of that was the chemical Magnesium Nitrate which has been used in Fountain solutions (USA included) for over 50 years. It is now classed as a carcinogen! Why? Because the dust of the neat powder can harm the lungs. How can that happen when it is included dissolved in a fountain solution at a mere 5% then it is diluted a further 98% with water before reaching the minder on the press? How can the dust from this nitrate reach the minders lungs?

Saying that a lot of existing fountain solutions contain carcinogens (our 2in1 does not) but the manufacturers do not disclose the MSDS sheets for this reason. Furthermore a lot of fountain solutions are not FOGRA approved.

It would appear that you were not correctly serviced by your past supplier and would hope to rectify the situation if it should arise again

All the best in your quest for a new position.

Kind Regards

Brian Moore
Carol Kirk

BM Management / BMM Print Ltd

 

[alan westwood]

not the holy grail

not the holy grail

Hi Lee, Brian, Carol,
I used to buy from Algraphic International, not Algraphic Supplies. Different company? I always found their service to be excellent and technically faultless. You make no mention of using 2in1 in the process of calibrating the Alcosmart, it appears that the functionality of the system is all that is being checked. If the Alcosmart had been reset to sniff NPA, you would not have the need for a correction table.

My understanding is that NPA is a 100% VOC, the same as IPA. Lower vapour pressure, slower evaporation yes but still 100% VOC.

I beg to differ about the carbon footprint. As I said, NPA is a 100% VOC, it is now recognised that imports brought in by container vessels are one of the largest single contributors to CO2 emissions. A recent report by Oceana says:

• Only five countries in the world release more carbon dioxide than the global fleet of marine vessels.
• This fleet releases 1.12 billion metric tons of carbon dioxide each year, an amount equivalent to emissions from over 205 million cars, or more cars than were registered in the U.S. in 2006 (135 million).
• A single container ship emits more global warming pollution than 2,000 diesel trucks.
• By 2020, these emissions could double 2002 levels, and they could be triple those levels by 2030.
• Ships are also major emitters of nitrogen oxides – contributing nearly 30% of the world’s releases. This amount too is expected to triple by 2030.
• Another pollutant released by ships, black carbon, or soot, can warm the air as well as cause snow and ice to melt. Black carbon may be responsible for as much as 25% of observed global warming.
•
Don’t know what you are charging but I was paying £1.60p per litre for 2in1. That was a little more than paying for fount/IPA for a similar quantity mix and printed sheet yield to usage.

Never had a crystallisation problem with fount IPA mix in the tank.

There wasn’t a problem with the doser, more likely the correction chart is not that accurate. Remember, you are not calibrating the Alcosmart to accept NPA, merely interpreting the information differently from the unit to the main computer. I did say I kept my water levels between 15%-18%, depending on temperature of press. The water savings achieved using 2in1 were minimal because I was starting from a low base. I spoke to someone from Cambridge University Press a while ago, they tried 2in1 and were getting picture framing quite bad, although that wasn’t our experience, just steels inking up. I think 2in1 is possibly a little more aggressive than most founts and tends to break down the ink easier.

Would be good to know your printer with such long runs, do you know what plate he uses, that information would be of value to the print forum.

Believe me, you have low ceilings and you know you are using 2in1! IPA just seemed to have a more clinical smell; perhaps it is the other ingredients in 2in that give it its unique aroma?

That’s a name I have not heard mentioned for many a year - Howson Algraphy. Times have moved on a pace, maybe ok for aluminium plates but what about brass? valves and the like. As for the Magnesium Nitrate is this the product that was the residue around the pipes, Would that not then be theoretically classed as the carcinogenic powder? Anyway good luck Lee, be interesting to see how you get on.