Agfa Azura Plates

[SteveAgfa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Hmmmm....

So, if Fuji (and I hear Kodak as well) are trying rinse/gum
units, does this mean that these plates are therefore no
longer "processless plates"?

As I've been saying, the gunk has to clean-out somewhere...
better in a clean-out unit, than in your press!

Regards,

 

[Cory Smith]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

lol..I knew that was coming.

 

[Santa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Which would you rather use a few thousand dollar Gum Unit or a $$$$$$$$$$$ dollar press.

It was a pretty simple choice for us.

 

[John W]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Hey Steve,
I wrote about this before. We did tests on both our presses, Roland and Heidelberg with the Pro-T plate.
Both were successful. The issue was the pre-damp time was too long on both automated start ups. When we reduced the rev #'s down by half, the plate cleanout worked perfectly. The lessened dampening time makes the non-image area sticky and the gunk as you so aptly put it sticks to the first few press sheets during MR. After that, the presses ran as usual and without hick up. The results were nearly identical to the plate standard in the shop. Nearly, meaning the naked eye could not see the difference. I believe the edge of the dot is very slightly softer. Very slightly! The Pro-T is a fine plate IMO.
There are two other features that I like about this plate. One is that it is negative acting as is your brand. The other is how we will use it.
John W

 

[SteveAgfa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

John:

Indeed, Fuji makes a good product.

The context of my comment comes from
the manner in which they position Pro-T
against the likes of Agfa, HDM & PRST
"processless plates". The three of us have
experience with on-press clean-out process.

And yes, as you described, cleaning out on
press is a carefully controlled process.

On a lighter, historical side...
At Ipex, even while Fuji was demonstrating
their chem-free violet technology with a clean-out
station (hmmm... sounds familiar), they were
posting placards in the men's washroom,
speaking of the virtues of on-press clean-out,
and against the practice of a clean-out station.

[see attached photos ]
(oops - I guess the forum filter intercepts urinals!
Sorry - No attachments!)

So now, it appears that their violet clean-out
strategy is migrating over to thermal as well.

Even processor-less is not process-less.

Enjoy.

 

[Turk58]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Yes Steve the Pro-V plate has a rinse gum unit,but as the gentleman before you so eloquently pointed out, that if the proper start up procedure is followed on press development is not an issue, all of the customers I have started on this product (Pro-T) are still running problem free.

Edited by: Jim Turcott on Sep 25, 2007 8:13 PM

 

[SteveAgfa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Thanks Jim.

Can you describe the Fuji-endorsed method to measure
your Pro-T plates? (Using a dot reader, not a ruler.)

Thanks,

 

[finkbrau]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

I see that Mr Musselman is trying to raise the question of image contrast. In comparing the "processless" technology plates how much emphasis does the end-user really put on image contrast ?
Is this the reason why Azura seems to be leading the field at this moment ?

Thanks.

 

[SteveAgfa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Hello Mr. Braumann,

It's been a while.

Yes, that's part of my question -
another aspect is the continued
white-light sensitivity of Pro-T
and Thermal Direct, and its
impact on plate handling,
and general ease of use.

With these plates, there is even
more of a need to measure than
that of Azura, since Azura's
emulsion is the closest thing
(aside from ablation) to a binary
plate. It has a 30 mJ window
of "correct" exposure, so there
is little or no need to measure
in day-to-day operations.

These are all intertwined
with the simple concept
of plate QC.

I await Fuji's response.

Regards,

 

[marktonk]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Hi Jim,

You stated: "Pro-T plate is the only "Processless Plate".

Would you not consider Kodak Thermal Direct to be processless? Or shall we say develop on press.

I have another question for you. What happens if a printer does not always print with a full sheet size when using Pro T? Where does the emulsion go?

With our Saphira Chemfree, it goes into the clean out unit.

I look forward to your answer on these and also Steves question as to how your measure the Pro T plate.

Regards,

Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP & proofing

 

[tkarg]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Very funny guys.

Tell me Mark, where do you get your "chemistry free" plate from? It is afterall the exact same technology as Agfa's because you buy it from Agfa, of course it would work the same way.

Both you and Steve also know full well Fujifilm's policies with regard to posting on public forums. Jim, as a representative of Fujifilm Canada, does not have the authority to comment on standards with regard to the worldwide. The areas you are attempting to move into could take his future posts and infer that those represent the standards that Fujifilm would use on a worldwide basis. (I'm a Senior Director and I don't have that authority either).

Customers interested in discussing Fujifilm technology, including Pro-T, are free to contact their local Fujifilm representative at any time. We'd be more than happy to discuss our solutions with them. We'd be happy to discuss all aspects of our true processless solution.

We have in these forums over the past years hashed and rehashed the processless (on press development) versus washout gum ("chemistry free") argument over and over. I don't see any value in going over it again. Same ground, same positions by competing companies.

Regards
Tony

 

[marktonk]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Tony,

Seems that the Saphira Chemfree plate could be anyones technology with everyone offering offline development now. Oh, sorry, that was also Fuji USA offering the offline development, at least that is what a Fuji rep told me at Graph Expo. So we now know Fuji USA and Canada offer offline development.

By the way, I do not think this was rehashing old information, last year you did not offer offline development, so it is not the same ground, same issues. Jim, a Fuji employee, brought up the Pro T plate and raised some points. This brings about other points and so here we are. Now, can you answer if the Pro T is still white light sensitive (1 hour or less) after off line development? Or does it gain contrast after developing but not inking? I would imagine these are not regional issues.

Regards,

Mark Tonkovich
Heidelberg USA
Product Manager, CtP & Proofing

 

[SteveAgfa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Tony:

Hat's off to Fuji for their sponsorship of these forums.

You have the right to remain silent.

Steve.

 

[tkarg]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Mark:

Interesting how you avoid making any statements where you actually get your Saphira Chemfree plate from. Could it be that you might have a corporate policy in place that requires Heidelberg employees not to disclose that you actually OEM the technology from Agfa?

With regard to Pro-T, our US sister company (Fujifilm Graphic Systems USA) may offer a washout solution within their market, Fujifilm Canada Inc. (which is a separate company in a different market) does not market such a solution. While its possible that a representative of FGSU may have told you something at a tradeshow, that does not mean other Fujifilm operating companies pursue the same strategy in their markets. We don't comment on the US marketplace (anymore than they comment on the Canadian one).

Perhaps you see now why we have policies in place that restrict us to commenting on our local markets only? Assumptions like the one you are making, lead people to make the wrong conclusions. That is why we encourage face to face dialogue with their local Fujifilm representative.

We encourage consumers to explore their plate options in the marketplace and look at each of the technologies offered. Each have their unique strengths. We would be happy to discuss and trial our solutions against those of our competitors to see which provides the best offering.

Regards
Tony Karg
Senior Director of Business Development & Marketing
Fujifilm Canada Inc. (Graphic Division)

 

[30YearsandCounting]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Everyone does have the right to be silent but up to this point, this thread has pretty much been driven by well known industry representatives. Each of you defending and promoting your own product. I find it curious when Steve specifically asks Fuji to respond to his questions ...never gets an answer and now says that it's ok for Fuji to be silent. Why? Each of you ...Steve, Mark and Tony raised some good questions for each other. I would like to hear the answers. If you guys want to promote your products on these forums, you should be either in or out. You can't have it both ways. As your customers, we come here to learn. If your answers only pertain to a specific country or region, then just say so.

 

[tkarg]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Dear 30yearsandcounting:

You raise valid points. My only response is that Fujifilm doesn't generally participate in these forums for the simple fact that we tend to pursue market or geographically specific strategies that make using worldwide forums, such as this one, not a particularly effective form of marketing. Just because a Fujifilm subsidiary chooses to follow a certain market strategy doesn't mean (and shouldn't be assumed) that other Fujifilm subsidiaries do the same. That's why getting sucked into technical conversations about a specific local market application of a product, like the Pro-T questions being asked, don't provide any value.

We generally don't get involved unless someone is making misleading or incorrect statements about our products or a clarification of Fujifilm's position is required (as it relates to a Canadian customer in the case of Fujifilm Canada). We discourage our team from discussing on forum unless a Canadian customer is involved.

We encourage customers to speak with their local Fujifilm representative to find out how Fujifilm supplied solutions can improve their business. It doesn't make for particularly exciting forum responses, but at Fujifilm Canada we believe the Graphics customer relationship is a personal one, and requires a local representative to meet and discuss how the application of Fujifilm technology can make a profitable difference in their business.

Regards
Tony

 

[SteveAgfa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

30 years...

My approbation about silence was sacrasm,
or perhaps irony, especially now that Fuji
sponsors a forum where they can not speak.

Perhaps it's altruism; certainly it's irony.

However, I believe I've been reponsive,
as has Mark, to the best of our abilities.

Regards,

 

[30YearsandCounting]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Steve M. wrote:
"My approbation about silence was sacrasm, or perhaps irony, especially now that Fuji sponsors a forum where they can not speak."

I have to agree with Steve on this point. It does seem odd that they would want to promote a forum that corporate policy restricts Fuji's own involvement. These forums exist so people can talk about our industry ...and our suppliers' products. I for one, find that I usually learn more about a product on these and other forums than I ever could learn from a sales person. It is also a much more efficient use of my time. Instead of feeling the need to react to misinformation, why not find a better way of providing the correct information in the first place?

 

[Chris]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Steve

Straying a little from the ongoing discussions, but I'm curious about the time-line for Agfa's *Violet* Chem-free for commercial, sheet-fed runs. I was told that this technology is now being used in the newspaper industry and won't be available for sometime in 2008. We have been very happy with the performance of the Galileo, but want to go green asap.

Thanks

 

[SteveAgfa]

Re: Agfa Azura Plates

Chris:

Agfa's Chem-Free Violet is now in controlled
sales within the newspaper market, and should
start rolling-out in full release mid-year next.

There are several factors that temper roll-out;
for instance, our main plate manufacturing
facility in the US is scheduled for a major
technology and capacity upgrade soon, for
local manufacturing of these popular low-
and chem-free plates, including Amigo and
Azura.

Agfa is the largest plate manufacturer in the world,
with manufacturing lines in 9 countries. New plate
introduction is a significant undertaking, and one
that is done at a controlled pace to ensure uninterrupted supply.

Thank you for your continued interest in Agfa.