Agfa Azura ts plates

[chockysden]

I am planning to get a new ctp and the avalon N8-20sc has been suggested. My challenge is that i use both conventional inks and UV inks. Iwill like to know the effect of uv inks on azura ts plates, will using uv inks reduce the number of impressions i get from this plate and to what extent. what are the alternatives?

 

[tomcatinc]

IMHO, Azura is very sensitive to UV inks, it will not last past 2000 impressions.

Better solution and "same" technology is Agfa Amigo plate. Baked plate could do a nice number of UV imapressions (factory data states 200k unbaked, I guess non-UV). Uses low qty of their washing solution (not a developer).

Other way is going to chem plates that are proven to do a nice number of UV impressions unbaked: I have seen Fuji LHPJE 65k+ in UV.

 

[pkpatter]

Chockysden, what are your run length requirements? Kodak’s new plate, the Sonora XP Plate, could give you up to 10,000 impressions using UV inks. Since you were looking at Azura plates, can I assume you are thinking about reducing processing chemicals? Sonora plates are process free, so there is no processing chemistry or equipment. They are based on the same technology as Kodak Thermal Direct Plates, but deliver faster imaging, stronger plate contrast, higher resolutions, and other improvements.

Pam Patterson
Product Marketing Manager, Plates
Eastman Kodak Company

 

[tomcatinc]

IMHO, Kodak Sonora XP and Thermal direct have two minor "flaws": they are cleaned out on press (which means there is no visual inspection; plate linearization, calibration and usual checks are a problem after inking; I don't like to have any kind of "dirt" in press, not even from plate imaging) and there was a limited time with Kodak Thermal Direct from imaging to cleaning out on press (something like 1 to 4 hours). Separate cleaning or developing allows this time to be much longer - you don't have to plan just-in-time plate imaging.

Chockysden, what are your run length requirements? Kodak’s new plate, the Sonora XP Plate, could give you up to 10,000 impressions using UV inks. Since you were looking at Azura plates, can I assume you are thinking about reducing processing chemicals? Sonora plates are process free, so there is no processing chemistry or equipment. They are based on the same technology as Kodak Thermal Direct Plates, but deliver faster imaging, stronger plate contrast, higher resolutions, and other improvements.

Pam Patterson
Product Marketing Manager, Plates
Eastman Kodak Company

 

[pkpatter]

Tomcatinc, you’ve mentioned some concerns that are pretty common. I will explain why here at Kodak we don’t think these are “flaws,” but I also hope customers using Thermal Direct or Sonora Plates will join the conversation to give their first-hand experiences.

First, the step to check a plate after processing is required to control the variability of the wet chemistry processing system. With Thermal Direct and Sonora Plates, the variability of the wet chemistry processing step is gone, so there’s no need to measure the plate. Plate contrast for Sonora plates is stronger than it is with Thermal Direct, so visual identification of the plate is much easier. And don’t worry about there being “dirt” in the press – here’s a link to a blog post and white paper that explain why press contamination doesn’t happen: "Why would I want to use my expensive press as a plate processor?" - Kodak Graphic Communications Group

Regarding time to take the plate to press, Sonora plates offer more flexibility than Thermal Direct. You can keep the plates up to 24 hours in yellow safelight (1 hour in white light). You can also store Sonora plates up to 2 weeks in light-tight conditions.

Pam Patterson
Product Marketing Manager, Plates
Eastman Kodak Company

 

[tomcatinc]

Since I work in prepress only studio, I work on CtP daily for customers that do not have the device and usually use overnight courier delivery service. Therefore, we need to have all controlled and calibrated before plate ships to customer. I have read the article and related white paper. I still do not see how to calibrate the plate? Or is it calibration on whole press-and-plate system at once? Calibration of plate is usually done in two steps: calibration of plate (making plate correction curve to get the required values on plate) and then calibration to press (making correction curve for specific press). If you have the CtP and measuring equipment in house, I guess that you can make press and plate calibration as a system and do the regular checks. In case of CtP service, this is hard to do.

I'm kind of old fashioned: I need to check the plate before it gets to press. For example: sometimes there is one plate in a hundreds that comes with a factory flaw like being hit on a small scale (like a pencil hit). That causes that part being out of focus. On positive plates, that leaves a visible mark of ink receptive layer; on negative plates, it leaves a hole. Since there is no perfect large scale production process of any kind, a visual inspection is performed after developing or washing of plate. In case of in house solution with "on-press developing", image another plate, replace and go (time consuming and press does not produce money). In case of CtP service and another overnight courier service, another lost day for the job. And I can not afford to have a printing press in prepress studio just do "develop" plates.

Again, I emphasize that CtP in house and Sonora XP could be a good solution. In my case of CtP service, only plates that could be developed or washed and checked before shipping (processless or chemistry free plates: I have experience with Agfa Azura and Azura TS; previously Presstek ablative plates) and have separate correction curve for plate (equipment on my site) and printing press (equipment on customer site) are only acceptable solution.

 

[jaed]

I use fuji's Ecomaxx-t plates, and the calabration is done right after its burned by wiping the plate clean with an alcohol sub and water mix to clean the plate, after that you can measure anything you want. If your checking every plate or every set this probably wouldn't work for you but in three years we haven't ever had any issues with it being out far enough to cause us any problems. Also as far as the contamination factor goes, on our four and five color presses it's never been a problem but on our two color press one of the idler rollers has to be cleaned every couple of days because of the stuff building up inside the roller train. All in all if I had it to do over again I'd still go with the processless plates.

 

[gordo]

(SNIP)Calibration of plate is usually done in two steps: calibration of plate (making plate correction curve to get the required values on plate) and then calibration to press (making correction curve for specific press).

Honestly, in my experience and humble opinion, that two step process is, in the vast majority of cases, a waste of time and effort and can cause some severe imaging problems. In a CtP workflow, you only need to apply a press curve.
This is explained here:
The Print Guide: To linearize your CtP plates or not?

Best, gordo

 

[tomcatinc]

Yes, Gordo, I agree: for press company itself this is faster way since they measure only the printed material and make corrections. But for CtP as a service it is better that I can control the plate and press curve independently (and correct if needed: plate curve according to my measurement and customer supplies new press curve as they see fit). I don't measure every plate, that checking is done from time to time. But every plate is visually checked for flaws like dirt on drum or factory flaw on plate as I already explained why.
If a CtP service company has many customers with many different presses, making corrections to all press curves would be expensive (in time, paper and plates) for us and customers. This way, we take care of plate curve and customer takes care of theirs press curve. And it is not done all at once. And does not matter plate developing or washing or processless or other plates.

 

[gordo]

Yes, Gordo, I agree: for press company itself this is faster way since they measure only the printed material and make corrections. But for CtP as a service it is better that I can control the plate and press curve independently (and correct if needed: plate curve according to my measurement and customer supplies new press curve as they see fit). I don't measure every plate, that checking is done from time to time. But every plate is visually checked for flaws like dirt on drum or factory flaw on plate as I already explained why.
If a CtP service company has many customers with many different presses, making corrections to all press curves would be expensive (in time, paper and plates) for us and customers. This way, we take care of plate curve and customer takes care of theirs press curve. And it is not done all at once. And does not matter plate developing or washing or processless or other plates.

I don't see your logic. Checking plates for flaws is fine, but not the double curves.

Think of it this way.

To create a linearizing curve you need to know the plate's natural curve. The one that it has when it's calibrated (right exposure and processing).
Then you need to know how that linear plate prints on your customer's press in order to create a curve that changes the linear plate to makes it print correctly on press.
All you really need is the natural curve of the plate (which you already have) and the curve that changes that natural curve to what is needed for the press (that is the curve your customer supplies).
The linearizing process is a redundant step.
Put another way...it's like taking a trip - you need to know your starting point (the plate's natural curve), where you want to go (the on press tone reproduction target), and the route that you want to take to get there (the plate curve that changes the plate's natural curve so that the plate delivers the presswork you desire).

Best, gordo

 

[tomcatinc]

Gordo, In in-house process I agree with your procedure. Now imagine 100+ customers with 150+ different presses (like my case). Now imagine single curve linearization for each press when plates curve changes (for whatever reason) and press curve does not. This rarely happens with Azura TS plates but it does happen (and differences are not big). It happens much more with processed plates as developer grows old or is being replaced with fresh one.
In my case (CtP as a service) it is easier to have double curve and work on them separately. This way I can correct the plate curve as a single value and have 150+ press values on plate corrected in a single turn.
Simple math: if I make corrections on weekly basis, that would mean 150 presses * 52 weeks a year * 2 minutes per press curve correction = 15.600 minutes = 260 man-hours per year. And on top of that add plates needed for this, press time and customer measurement time. That is the real waste of money. And it has to be done all at once. Of course, there is another approach to this: image plates for a reference machine and measure the output - if it has significant change, do all presses.
Two curves give me the ability to have stable plate output and customer gives the information when they feel they need to have their press curve changed. In my case, a bit more work saves in the begging saves a lot of time and money later on.
I emphasize again: in smaller systems one curve is plenty. "Smaller systems" means small number of presses. Even 10 presses is not really a big deal. But real many different machines is easier to handle with two curves.

 

[gordo]

Thanks for that. Makes more sense now.

Gordo