Another Recommendation Question

[PrairieDog]

I have read many post about the recommendation on equipment. We are working towards a final decision within a couple weeks. We currently have a Xerox 700 press that we are averaging about 65K clicks per month - approx 15K are 12x18 full color gloss 240 GSM. We have stuggled with supplies and service likely 14 months of the 48.

KM is recommending Bizhub C7000. We have looked at a C8000 in KM offices. The colors were not great, the machine did operate very well. We liked the Fiery Server and we were very happy with the print drivers for around the office.

Xerox started by recommending the 700i or the 770. Just earlier this we they have recommended the J75. We are waiting for pricing and demo of the equipment. We bought the 700 thinking they were a great company to work with and would be there for us if we needed them; over the 4 years the only thing that drives them is money and they have had very little respect for us the users (obviously my side). The pricing of the 770 was about 25% more then the C7000, maybe the J75 will be better priced but we are not expecting that.

At looking at a few things on the J75, I like the fact that the machine is hooked up to their portal for supplies and problems with the machine. When the color was good with the 700 it was right on but that has been a rare event. We have been told that we need a different fuser for the different sizes of paper, something that "doesn't impress us much" and I see on the J75 that is life. The one video I saw said that it was a money saver - obviously for Xerox.

One thing that concerns me is that the 770 was only on the market for a year. Any idea what happened? I suspect the End of Life is likely planned for 3 - 5 years not 1. What happened to the 700i? Although we were not happy with the 700 and now it is hard to get it to print anything except bond paper.

I read that if we consider KM we need to have some additional software and likely a day a year with their color expert. The reading in PP is that otherwise it seems to be pretty dependable - is that true? Any other concerns?

What has been your experiences with the J or C75 or the 770? Have you had any troubles with service? Supplies? I would really like Xerox to committ to the information transfer as one user said it - most of the troubles are with the untrained users. We agree but they seem to not have a way to move their amazing knowledge from their company to the users.

 

[chrisg42]

As has been said many times on here, the number one issue is support in your part of the world.

We get excellent support from KM (direct, not a dealer) and it was a very important factor when deciding what should replace our KM6500 last year. We looked at the 7000, but a great deal on an 8000 clinched it. Colour on machines in suppliers' demo facilities is not always what it should be; the C8000 gives great colour in production.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lives of these machines. For this type of kit, its best to assume it will be "obsolete" the week after you have it installed, just like digital cameras, cellphones, etc. In practice the "new" machine that replaces it will be the "old" machine, but with different colour plastic covers and a few software/hardware tweaks.

 

[arossetti]

Couple things.

1.) You said you didn't like the color of the KM machines. It is important to note that Xerox intentionally makes the color on the 700 incorrect. The developer housings allow the printer to over saturate to make the colors more rich but not accurate. They realized that the people buying the 700 didn't care about true color but more about what is most appealing to those customers. So if comparing the 700 to a KM it might not be that the KM color is bad, but the 700 color is different.

2.) Are you currently in a lease with the equipment under contract? Your best option is to solve your current problems with service and consumable acquisition. Having either Xerox or KM roll your current contract into a new one only for you to find out that you have the same problems with service and getting toner will only make things worse. Your volumes say you have the right machine currently. Instead of getting caught up in the sales pitch that both companies are offering you and making it sound like rainbows will fly out the output with their new boxes you need to apply pressure to service. Call the service manager for Xerox in your region and schedule a meeting, have your sales person there as well. Tell them your issues, ask for a path to resolve and circle back with them in 30 days. If things do not improve call their bosses. You are currently paying for a machine to work and to be supplied with toner, if you are not getting that then you need to force them to up hold your current contract before talking about new ones.

EDIT: In reading what you wrote I'm confused if your current lease is up, if so ignore #2.

 

[PrairieDog]

Great points. We were comparing the KM printing to the Xerox print although the color was significantly different.

Our lease is up in August, so it is not worth another war with the Service guys. We had others and have been told that is all they can do.

I think both offerings are very good - we have some messes getting service from the existing supplier but I can't really say that we won't have issues with KM.

I'm guessing it will get down to $'s. We are anticipating KM will be a bit better in pricing and maybe a bit better in the per click charge. I've heard that KM have a higher cost for larger sheets so the calculation will help us decide.

For the extras we are thinking about a training day a year and the upgraded color system for KM. Is there anything else that you would recommend?

 

[PrairieDog]

We are getting close to a deal. KM is telling us to keep the color true on the C7000 we need to add the Relay Unit RU508 but with the IC306 Controller and the graphics Artist package. The technical details on the RU508 indicate its primary function is a de-curler. The local KM office is indicating it is more than just that - it is always assessing the color density and adjusting the color accordingly.

We had asked for the IC307 Controller and the ColorCare modules to keep the color consistent.

Any thoughts?

 

[mexpedip]

The relay unit (RU-508) has built in color sensors that allow the engine to monitor its post process imaging and make color adjustments on the fly. The relay unit does several different things including de-curling, color density control (see first description) and houses the humidification unit if it is needed/added.

The Creo (IC-307) is what we use in my market, but each KM market differs based on the bias's of the analysts. Our analyst loves it because he is G7 Expert and feels the reaching the G7 standards (on the C8000 only) is easier. I am sure every day users can give you a better pro/con for the Creo vs Fiery.