Are small offset presses just not used anymore

[ondemandbindery]

Hi all. I look back over what I have seen in shops this year and the one thing I notice is the small offset presses are just not getting used. If you look on Ebay these things are just about being given away. Has the market gotten a point now where people lose money turning them on or is there just that much more profitability in doing things digital? I remember using Silvermaster Platemakers and running those little things. That was 20 years ago though and things sure have changed.

 

[Craig]

Here is my 2 cents, having been a small offset/letterpress shop since 1966, if I could find an alternative to our 9870 I'd take it in a heartbeat. The small offset is far to labor intense and it is getting harder to find a pressman that doesn't want $20.00/hr because that's what he was making at the box shop that closed and he was running a 6 or 8 color press. Unfortunately the small press will have to keep running as it is a necessary evil.

Here is an example of profitability on a copier vs small press.
5000 BW 1 sided sheets 8.5x11 (paper not included)
Cost to copy $15.00 - Time on my copier 55min.
Cost to print Approx $48.00 - Time on press (from making plate to wash-up) almost 2 hours

 

[ondemandbindery]

Here is my 2 cents, having been a small offset/letterpress shop since 1966, if I could find an alternative to our 9870 I'd take it in a heartbeat. The small offset is far to labor intense and it is getting harder to find a pressman that doesn't want $20.00/hr because that's what he was making at the box shop that closed and he was running a 6 or 8 color press. Unfortunately the small press will have to keep running as it is a necessary evil.

Here is an example of profitability on a copier vs small press.
5000 BW 1 sided sheets 8.5x11 (paper not included)
Cost to copy $15.00 - Time on my copier 55min.
Cost to print Approx $48.00 - Time on press (from making plate to wash-up) almost 2 hours

Well you summed that up pretty easy. Now I know why they I do not see them running anymore.

 

[[email protected]]

If you think printing companies are not using their small offset machines to make money than you are mistaking. I can personally list very prestigious companies both commercial and in-plant that still depend on these machines to produce work and provide jobs for people.
Do not drink the Digital Kool Aid that people here advertise or profess their digital way of printing is the best method. Most digital owners may fail to mention the click charges, the service contract cost, the energy required to run the machine and the PC or Mac for the interface and the network hookup and routers and switches and so on.
A smarter way to print is to use the equipment that you have and is paid for and in most cases has been paid off for many years. Plus on the green side these machines have already been manufactured and the carbon foot print has long since passed. A digital machine to replace it has to manufactured in say Japan and shipped to the customer via ship, Than set up by a tech that uses fuel to get there……and on and on.
We as a printing community should just close our doors and let these digital press and copier makers have our customers. We are headed towards one big digital W2P site that will supply every human his printing needs.
Drink the Digital Kool Aid and pay out the butt, I enjoy seeing my customers making a profit with the small offset press they own. No monthly payments for equipment or click charges or finance charges.
Plus the upside is the people have jobs and health care and contribute to social security etc. When you purchase a new digital press or copier look at the bigger picture of who may be affected….
Originally Posted by Craig
Here is my 2 cents, having been a small offset/letterpress shop since 1966, if I could find an alternative to our 9870 I'd take it in a heartbeat. The small offset is far to labor intense and it is getting harder to find a pressman that doesn't want $20.00/hr because that's what he was making at the box shop that closed and he was running a 6 or 8 color press. Unfortunately the small press will have to keep running as it is a necessary evil.

Hey Craig why not learn how to operate the 9870 yourself? It is very easy and you could be more productive to your company. Or hire a student from a local vo tech and train him?

OG

 

[Happyprinter]

I agree 100% with offset guy. There is a place in todays market for both machines. As for taking 2 hrs to produce 5000 flyers on your offset, somebody is milking that job for all it's worth. I guarantee it is alot faster than 55 minutes including ink up and washup. As was stated, the price of offset presses are coming down. You can pickup a used Ryobi etc for next to nothing and run it for many years. As for $15 plate charge including plate and neg. $15? We produce our own negs on a Lino 330, also purchased very inexpensive, the cost isnt even close to $15 a plate. Know figure that against the cost of a new or used digital machine. No comparison on purchase price. Then figure in consumables, click charges, LARGE payment and operation. Doesnt take a genius to figure out what is more cost effective and which will turn the largest profit. In my humble opinion, if shops arent using their offset in conjunction with their digital they are not running a shop to it's full profitability potential. I would suggest that you learn how to operate the press yourself. Also, you can hire a high school kid for next to nothing to train and let him or her run it full time or part time. Digital KoolAid. Hit that nail on the head!!

 

[ondemandbindery]

I agree 100% with offset guy. There is a place in todays market for both machines. As for taking 2 hrs to produce 5000 flyers on your offset, somebody is milking that job for all it's worth. I guarantee it is alot faster than 55 minutes including ink up and washup. As was stated, the price of offset presses are coming down. You can pickup a used Ryobi etc for next to nothing and run it for many years. As for $15 plate charge including plate and neg. $15? We produce our own negs on a Lino 330, also purchased very inexpensive, the cost isnt even close to $15 a plate. Know figure that against the cost of a new or used digital machine. No comparison on purchase price. Then figure in consumables, click charges, LARGE payment and operation. Doesnt take a genius to figure out what is more cost effective and which will turn the largest profit. In my humble opinion, if shops arent using their offset in conjunction with their digital they are not running a shop to it's full profitability potential. I would suggest that you learn how to operate the press yourself. Also, you can hire a high school kid for next to nothing to train and let him or her run it full time or part time. Digital KoolAid. Hit that nail on the head!!

This is kind of what I was thinking myself. I understand the impact of Digital and where it is all headed but I amsteadily turning into a stubborn old mule in my bindery and try to keep some things as mechanical as possible. I guess what got this stirring is I have a person who helps me part time who can run the snot out of a Hamada. I do a little Brokering of small work and he just shakes his head when someone else is doing this type of work and not myself. My business has turned into doing finishing specialty projects for Printers who would care less if I screamed a little Hamada all day long. I tell him there are reasons why these presses are not used anymore and it truly is interesting to see different opinions on this exact subject. Should make for good shop talk over the weekend.

 

[OkiTech]

Mr. Craig I am a copyshop owner that actually went small offset, I don't understand how do you go with 5000 b/w copies for $15 even if you own the copier, did you implement the cost of maintenance kit? if you have lets say 65 pages per minute Canon it is close to $20k machine and you have about 1.5 million copies of good life in it, did you count all that? Plus on 65 ppm machine 5k run will take 75 minutes, toner is $85 for about 30,000 pages even e little less if copies have some fill...
I am originally started with Business Equipment Sales / Service company than opened a Copy Shop than went small offset, even being a dealer and having ability to fix my own equipment and buy parts and suppllies at wholesale price I would not dare to assume that 5000 copies will cost $15 even buying 90 ppm Ricoh 2090 which $40,000 machine for $5000 still don't think it is a cost...
How is the press run Eats $48? if it really does, get a HP5100 to make a laser plates for quick simple jobs- Plate $1.5, time to make 2-3 min, it can (and does in my shop) run 10,000 easy, so lf we make this 2up 11x17 job and cut it later, plate takes 5 min to mount, 2,500 impressions run about 15-20 min, cut another 5 min, on rubber base or acryllic ink we don't need to wash after every job.... So really getting on it, this job should be ready in about 30 min total time with a little time gap in between printing and cutting.
Sorry to rain on your parade, I will gladly share what I do and what I know if you are interested.
Happy 2010!

 

[GazKL440]

There are certain areas where a good quality copier will nail a small offset every time... For example at a small offset shop i part time at, short run high quality print done on their Xerox700 was done with zero waste and minimal haedache, and this was a job i know i could have printed easily enough on their GTO or ryobi, but at the expense of probably a full day's work and to be honest, i'm certain that it (5x2sides, full colour with a lot of colour critical pics reversed out of solid blacks and just 35 copies of each required) would have been a difficult and time consuming pain in the ass on a single col GTO or 512H Ryobi. The owner of this profitable shop is a very smart operator and is considering buying a second Xerox...

I agree with the overall costing issues that Offset Guy has raised, and feel that there will always be a place for small offset machinery (i certainly hope there will be anyway!!) as there are a lot of jobs that simply cant be run on a copier... I feel its a case of defining the point where copiers and offset are profitable in comparison to each other, and managing your workflow to combine the best attributes of both to maximise profitability and continuity... Times are a changing in this industry and the head in the sand attitude will result in lost jobs and companies going under..

And, for what its worth...2 hours to knock over a single colour 5k job??? hmmm... you need to have words with your press operater, and you can have them for free..."sharpen the f**k up man!!!"

 

[Craig]

Let me defend the flames here a little. First I do know how to operate the 9870, very well I might say. There is not a piece of equipment in my shop that I can't operate. I started cutting my teeth in this business 15 years ago on Multi 1250's so I am aware of operating duplicator presses and their capabilities.

2 hours is not all that unrealistic for a press run from start to finish IF you figure the following:
Make the plate, prep the plate 10 minutes (we have a Xante Platemaker)
Ink up the press, mix fountain solution 10 minutes.
Mount the plate, load the first lift of paper, position copy and bring it to color 10 minutes.
Print 5000 sheets @ 7500/hr including loading and unloading paper 45 to 50 minutes.
Wash up the rollers, clean the blanket, impression cylinder and Kompac unit 15 to 20 minutes
That ranges from 90 to 100 minutes, as long as you don't need to stop to clean the blanket, clear a sheet jam that just so happens to run itself into the water unit and you need to clean that. You know the fun stuff that happens.

Now to costs.
Quote from Unlimited BT - "if you have lets say 65 pages per minute Canon it is close to $20k machine and you have about 1.5 million copies of good life in it, did you count all that? Plus on 65 ppm machine 5k run will take 75 minutes, toner is $85 for about 30,000 pages even e little less if copies have some fill..."

My click charge including toner is $0.003/ click. My Production B/W printer is almost 3 years old with over 11 million prints and still running just as strong as day 1. Did I take into account the lease charges for either the copier or the press.... no. I also did not mention that while the copier is cranking out those prints the operator is able to do other things, like cutting and folding. Try that with the offset and see how long you go before you get bit in the ass. Yes you can run a Poly plate at 10,000 impressions IF you don't have any screens. Trust me I have had a Xante for 6 years, I know its limitations.

I'll stand behind my $45 cost for the press run when you include Plate, Ink, Fountain Solution, Roller Wash, Clean Up Sheets oh and labor that pretty much is required (in my shop) to stand at the chain delivery and pull sheets to make sure the quality is to my standards.

Now if you READ my first post you will see that I say it's a necessary evil, there are things that you just can't do with a copier PERIOD. But there are things you can do with a digital device that are MUCH more cost effective than with a press.

OffsetGuy - Have you actually hired a VO Tech kid to run a press? I have, how many have you had to train until you found one that actually had the SKILLS required to make QUALITY prints from a press? I remember one who actually cleaned out the ink fountain with his fingers! Silly me I thought he would have used the ink knife.

FYI I don't let crap jobs go out my door, I will not stand for jobs that are offset, light in color, not in register... overall crap.

Will the small offset press be driven out the door by digital... No, but it is making a dent in the amount produced on them.

 

[TJPrinter]

There simply in no nice way to say this. But if someone needs to stand at the delivery of a press running a simple black job thru the whole run, then they should be fired immediately. I am truly baffled how someone could have a great aggressive price structure on a black box but fall on their face with the rest of their vendors. A material "cost" of $48 is just outrageous. Take a look at a pricing guide and you will find that the "charge" not the "cost" for platemaking, inkup & ink, and wash-up is not even $48 for a simple 1/0 black run!

I will fully agree that there are many jobs that should be put on a digital machine but I hate to see this kind of exaggeration. I have never had so little work that I had only 1 black job to run in a day, so why anyone would ink up and clean a press after every simple black job is a mystery to me. The bad news is that if a print shop has a "cost" of $48 for a simple black job then you better get rid of that press fast because there are many printers out there that are much more efficient...and profitable.

Good luck to all!

 

[rbailleu]

AMEN TJPrinter

compare apples to apples.

there is a job for every machine and a machine for every job.

 

[Craig]

A material "cost" of $48 is just outrageous. Take a look at a pricing guide and you will find that the "charge" not the "cost" for platemaking, inkup & ink, and wash-up is not even $48 for a simple 1/0 black run!

I will fully agree that there are many jobs that should be put on a digital machine but I hate to see this kind of exaggeration. I have never had so little work that I had only 1 black job to run in a day, so why anyone would ink up and clean a press after every simple black job is a mystery to me. The bad news is that if a print shop has a "cost" of $48 for a simple black job then you better get rid of that press fast because there are many printers out there that are much more efficient...and profitable.

Good luck to all!

I'll stand behind $45.00 IF labor is included. I don't know about you but the good fairy doesn't show up at night and run the press for me. I need to PAY someone to do it. Again I can make the same prints for $15.00 on a B/W production device that will run 95% unattended.

Would I have a press inked up for 1 job... very very doubtful, but how else do you make an apples to apples comparison with 1 job???

 

[RGPW17100]

That 5500 8.5x11 run should be run two up on 11 x 17. A gravy run like that should take no longer then 30 minutes to run. A CTP Azura plate is $4 and at 1/2 hour that cost minus paper would be $14 add$33 for paper and total cost is $47. Problem is you have prepress time, equipment costs and lease equipment costs which drives that number quite a bit higher. When we have simple jobs like that and the runs approach 5k or greater our press operator get the ink balanced and maintains the press for 8500 per hour then does bindery while the press is running making periodic checks for hickeys or problems. The press operator that sits and balances his check book while this job is running is what down sizing is all about. Duplicators no longer run black ink. The industry has become riddled with business cards with flood coats of a pms on one side and two color hair line registration with reverses. These are the jobs that a 20/hr operator is needed.

When we have larger runs if they get finished we save time on bindery as well from using duplicators instead of copiers. No static and cracking toner.

 

[printerdw]

small press

small press

I work in an inhouse shop and we still use our 2 Multi 1250's every day 1 for NCR forms and the other for Envolopes and they are both over 35 years old and still run great. I was a Multi Tech rep for 12 years so I can also fix them and keep them running.

 

[spigot]

That job, 1/0 black 5000 copies.
When i was in my last year of apprenticeship, this is how that job would have been expected.

Makeready - 12-18 minutes.
Run - 35 minutes.
Washup - 12-18 minutes.
Done in 71 minutes.
Without the washup, subsequent makeready was 6 minutes.

It might sound too fast but it happened because thats what was required to make the moolah.
This would happen day in day on a GTO-52 2 colour. The only time it would be slower was if the envelopes were particularly terrible, but you learn pretty fast to spot the shitters and use a combo of wedges, rolls, etc.

I left out the prepress/platemaking because both digi and offset have some form of preparation required. And It applies to both so really shouldnt interest the comparison.

 

[dabob]

I agree with the offest guys . . . we have a multi 1250lw cira 1950 with an envelope feeder and a t head and any envelopes over 5000 pcs or where we have to open the flaps to print are done on it way better than the GTO's . .. also we print menus for a west coast chain with silvermaster plates on either a Hamada 600 or a chief 17 k/k on 4/c shells size about 8.375x13.75 hard to imagine any other profitable way to do that. . . offset will be around for a while . . . .here in america we are losing site of "use it up - make it do - find another use for it" attitude sometimes the old technology is the best solution . . . . .you just have to wrap your head around it and make it pay

 

[Mark H]

Hi all. I look back over what I have seen in shops this year and the one thing I notice is the small offset presses are just not getting used. If you look on Ebay these things are just about being given away. Has the market gotten a point now where people lose money turning them on or is there just that much more profitability in doing things digital? I remember using Silvermaster Platemakers and running those little things. That was 20 years ago though and things sure have changed.

Maybe it's the turn around time, lack of qualified operators, or the lower cost for many of the staple work (business cards, letterhead, etc) items that comes from the big digital houses. I don't know. I ask the same question about other industries that are being automated or marginalized into extinction. Who needs specialists when the magic black box can do the job 90% as well for 1/10th the cost. Do we really need that 100% after all?

Eventually 90% becomes 85%, then 80% until what you get today doesn't resemble the quality of what you might have gotten 30 years ago. Ever look at a quality business card from the 1950's? Thing was a work of art. While today's 4/4 uv coated cards are bright and shiny, they can't hold a candle to what you used to get. But, it's what is expected now.

Mark H

 

[printerdw]

Will still use offset to print our business cards I print the shells 20 up on our A252 Hamada 14x20 press and then we print the names 10 up on the 1250 both press plates coming off CTP System so they look great. no uv coating no frills and people love them.

 

[Craig]

Will still use offset to print our business cards I print the shells 20 up on our A252 Hamada 14x20 press and then we print the names 10 up on the 1250 both press plates coming off CTP System so they look great. no uv coating no frills and people love them.

Not to throw mud, but in all that labor you have in shells and costs in plates a digital machine can run the same cards 24 up (with bleeds) and have them trimmed and boxed before you get the sheet up to color on the Hamanda. No shells to warehouse and keep track of either! (Total cost minus paper $12.50 including the lease payment $2.21 just in clicks for 4/0)

Spigot I hate to say but your 71 minute run still doesn't get it done as fast as my 90/min BW machine. I'll have it done in 56 minutes, boxed and ready for the customer to pick up, while you and RGPW17100 are still waiting for the ink to dry.

It's by far not the end all be all, but there is a place for everything, and the prudent owner will use each piece of equipment to their advantage whether it's offset or digital.

 

[printerdw]

We would love to have a machine like that but when you work for a small college and a budget lower then that machine cost you do what you have to do works fine for us.