Best digital press today?
- Thread starter stargate
- Start date
Mr Jones
New member
Team, in referance to muddy toner I think you need to put yourself in your clients shoes. I have seen guys with years of experiance not able to pick the same file printed Offset, Indigo or I-Gen, so what will your client see?
The I-Gen is a big beast, it likes to eat, so make sure you have the print to feed it. Most maintainace is done by the opperator as well.
The I-Gen is a big beast, it likes to eat, so make sure you have the print to feed it. Most maintainace is done by the opperator as well.
Internal_R&D_Analyst
Well-known member
Labels or transactional, one sided or two, 8 hours a day running or 24, toner or inkjet, the list goes on and on. . .
I was trained by our indigo operator for one week. In the two weeks he was on vacation I was able to handle not only the running but also did all the maintenance stuff including blanket changes, PIP replacement, and even replaced a bid unit. We have a 5500 and had a 3050 and a 2000. Scratching is the biggest problem and it usually happens when the build exceeds 250 percent. Dark blues and rich blacks are our biggest enemy. What we have noticed is the first color down sticks real well to the sheet. The colors on top of that color are where the scratching comes from. The ink does not adhere real well to the ink and scratches off. Aqueous coating helps a little but you are still facing the same issue of ink on ink.
I have seen work from Igens, nexpress and cannon copiers and feel none can match the quality of the indigo. I can score a job that is rich black against the grain from the indigo and the score will not crack. We do this all the time and we are not using a letter press but a tri creaser score attachement on our stahl folder. If cost is not an issue I would go indigo.
I have seen work from Igens, nexpress and cannon copiers and feel none can match the quality of the indigo. I can score a job that is rich black against the grain from the indigo and the score will not crack. We do this all the time and we are not using a letter press but a tri creaser score attachement on our stahl folder. If cost is not an issue I would go indigo.
Member
Member
Card stoke Printing(C2s) 13pt to16pt, 2sided, 16hrs a day or 24, Toner base......
Member
Card stoke Printing(C2s) 13pt to16pt, 2sided, 16hrs a day or 24, Toner base......
Internal_R&D_Analyst
Well-known member
I'd start a new post for this. . .
Digital Presses
Digital Presses
We did extensive research on which machine was the best for our business. We are a high-end, small format (14 x 20) printer and felt the demand from our clients for very short run, high quality work (we have a Heidelberg QMDI, a PM46-2 and a SM52-5P). After sending the same 5 files to each vendor (Xerox, Kodak, HP and Konica) we examined the results and the HP Indigo 5500 was the clear winner. You are hard pressed to tell the difference (even with a loupe) between the Indigo 5500 and the offset samples. We purchased the machine in Jan. 2008 and have been running it every day since, and are still amazed with the stuff we can print. In addition to the short run jobs that are now run digital, we run almost all of our business cards (1-4 color) on the Indigo. It's almost pointless to run them offset, as it's quick and you can cut them immediately and with the color curve adjustments on the Indigo, you can match most of the PMS colors. In addition, you can buy PMS Indigo inks.
As far as rub resistance, we have found that certain papers scratch more easily than others (Futura 120# cover is great for rub resistance). The layers of ink also affect the rub resistance (ie: rich black heavy builds). For greater protection, we have used both Kentucky Shine and Braden gloss varnish and both work well.
After over a year of running the Indigo, I am extremely happy to note that we have only had about 4 service calls. My only complaint with the HP is that you can't bleed 12 x 18, even though it will run 13 x 19 sheets. I would buy it again, but if I need another (additional) digital machine, I seriously would consider the Kodak 3500 Nextpress, as it will run 14 x 20 sheets and bleed 12 x 18 - in addition, the dimensional 5th color ink unit makes some dramatic emboss-like effects (see this month's Graphic Arts Monthly cover which was done on the Nextpress). The Igen is a nice machine too, but it is much more $$$ than the others, and I don't see the value (or the quality). The Konica did an OK job, but wasn't in the same class as the others.
Hope this info helps answer some of your questions...
Gary
Digital Presses
We did extensive research on which machine was the best for our business. We are a high-end, small format (14 x 20) printer and felt the demand from our clients for very short run, high quality work (we have a Heidelberg QMDI, a PM46-2 and a SM52-5P). After sending the same 5 files to each vendor (Xerox, Kodak, HP and Konica) we examined the results and the HP Indigo 5500 was the clear winner. You are hard pressed to tell the difference (even with a loupe) between the Indigo 5500 and the offset samples. We purchased the machine in Jan. 2008 and have been running it every day since, and are still amazed with the stuff we can print. In addition to the short run jobs that are now run digital, we run almost all of our business cards (1-4 color) on the Indigo. It's almost pointless to run them offset, as it's quick and you can cut them immediately and with the color curve adjustments on the Indigo, you can match most of the PMS colors. In addition, you can buy PMS Indigo inks.
As far as rub resistance, we have found that certain papers scratch more easily than others (Futura 120# cover is great for rub resistance). The layers of ink also affect the rub resistance (ie: rich black heavy builds). For greater protection, we have used both Kentucky Shine and Braden gloss varnish and both work well.
After over a year of running the Indigo, I am extremely happy to note that we have only had about 4 service calls. My only complaint with the HP is that you can't bleed 12 x 18, even though it will run 13 x 19 sheets. I would buy it again, but if I need another (additional) digital machine, I seriously would consider the Kodak 3500 Nextpress, as it will run 14 x 20 sheets and bleed 12 x 18 - in addition, the dimensional 5th color ink unit makes some dramatic emboss-like effects (see this month's Graphic Arts Monthly cover which was done on the Nextpress). The Igen is a nice machine too, but it is much more $$$ than the others, and I don't see the value (or the quality). The Konica did an OK job, but wasn't in the same class as the others.
Hope this info helps answer some of your questions...
Gary
A coater is a must for any HP Indigo user. It is another touch and in automation I don't want that. We have a 3050 and as far as print quality it is unmatched by the other two player. Down time for maintenance and registration have been consistent problems and for one of our former good customers rub off was a big issue for them. They're running their cards on a Cannon 7000 now.
transcorotron
New member
Igen!!!!
Igen!!!!
I dont know what you guys talking about "bad quality on igen" this machine is as good as the operator wanted to be, a well trained operator will make it look beautifull, perfect now if you dont print at least 500,00 dont look at the Igen. Igot 9 years exp on digital printing and 5 running the Igen, and when something dont look right is time to clean up and boom nice output, like i said is not the horse is the jockey...
Igen!!!!
I dont know what you guys talking about "bad quality on igen" this machine is as good as the operator wanted to be, a well trained operator will make it look beautifull, perfect now if you dont print at least 500,00 dont look at the Igen. Igot 9 years exp on digital printing and 5 running the Igen, and when something dont look right is time to clean up and boom nice output, like i said is not the horse is the jockey...
mrgraphics
Active member
I am confused. I want to go for Digital Printing. My targets are Brochures, Fliers, A3 Posters, A5 Booklets all of small quantity. I read about Konika Minoltah 65HC. Anybody has bought it yet? Do you think that is a good option? Others say that this machine wont give me CMYK exact colors as it has an RGB workflow. Who can suggest me as i want to start putting digital press as i have to still buy the finishing machine. Please guide me i am very new.
From Dar es Salaam, Tanzania - East Africa
From Dar es Salaam, Tanzania - East Africa
@mrgraphics
The 65HC is "bleeding edge" technology, i.e. it is brand new and shifts the technology that's available. No one knows yet whether it will be a "good" shift or a dud. There simply aren't hardly any of them out there yet as the product is brand new.
Essentially HC alters the reflectance (yes, I do mean that literally & technically) and colour gamut of the toner. The net effect of this is that images appear somewhat brighter and the colour gamut is much closer to sRGB than it is to CMYK. In fact, you cannot hit some CMYK colours.
If you do not understand what this means in terms of workflow and product, then you may wish to consider passing on this product until there is more field experience with this technology.
The 6501 is essentially the same engine, but using "standard" Simitri HD toner and this is matches "standard" CMYK gamut very nicely (hence standard workflow, standard products). In addition, the pricing model is straightforward "pay per click", unlike the HC pricing model. Under all circumstances (except perhaps extremely light toner coverage) a standard 6501 will be cheaper to operate.
I hope that helps.
The 65HC is "bleeding edge" technology, i.e. it is brand new and shifts the technology that's available. No one knows yet whether it will be a "good" shift or a dud. There simply aren't hardly any of them out there yet as the product is brand new.
Essentially HC alters the reflectance (yes, I do mean that literally & technically) and colour gamut of the toner. The net effect of this is that images appear somewhat brighter and the colour gamut is much closer to sRGB than it is to CMYK. In fact, you cannot hit some CMYK colours.
If you do not understand what this means in terms of workflow and product, then you may wish to consider passing on this product until there is more field experience with this technology.
The 6501 is essentially the same engine, but using "standard" Simitri HD toner and this is matches "standard" CMYK gamut very nicely (hence standard workflow, standard products). In addition, the pricing model is straightforward "pay per click", unlike the HC pricing model. Under all circumstances (except perhaps extremely light toner coverage) a standard 6501 will be cheaper to operate.
I hope that helps.
kingpd@businessprints.net
Well-known member
Spot On!
Spot On!
Offset guy is spot on!
I generally don't like people, especially when I'm at home trying to rest and relax and be alone. I've gotten marketing from Presstek, Konica Minolta, and even some trade printing magazines touting vdp with my personal information on it. Hell back in the 90's a company called Viking Office Products would send sales flyers with recently purchased histories on the front cover.
Bottom line, I don't want people to know anything about me, my shopping habits, or even confirming that I live at a certain address. I always shred and/or black out my name and address before I recycle. I enjoy my privacy!
I'm all for printing, I earn a living from it but seriously the junk mail is getting out of control. The do not call list (albeit, not too effective), and the anti-spam laws were a start. If we in the printing industry aren't careful, any unsolicited mail may eventually get banned.
Add to that the new QR codes and other stupid things for stupid "smart" (or rather dumbass) phones, and eventually spam is going to be out of control. I already get unsolicited spam text messages on my phone.
Oh, my business has been doing direct mailings for years. Some made in house some made by outsourced professional. Some static and some with fancy variables. Bottom line result was always the same; we didn't earn sh*t back from the marketing efforts.
Now here's a heated debate and hard truth for people in our industry to understand and this contradicts what the printing trade publications and associations say; but people DO NOT want spam mail in their box. They simply don't!
I mean come on! How stupid are some of the people in our own industry!?!? When was the last time you got junk mail and said oh thank lordy lordy, I'm so glad someone from a company I never heard of before is telling me about something I don't want! Well maybe you have said that, if so you're a freak.
I pull out all the bills in the mail everyday and at the end of every week it takes me a good hour to go through all the other BS. I get about a trash bag a week of shredded paper and with all the catalogs and magazines, the recycle place is doing quite well in my area!
I too appreciate the beauty of a good piece of litho printed literature; be it a good book or SOLICITED magazine.
Spot On!
Offset guy is spot on!
I generally don't like people, especially when I'm at home trying to rest and relax and be alone. I've gotten marketing from Presstek, Konica Minolta, and even some trade printing magazines touting vdp with my personal information on it. Hell back in the 90's a company called Viking Office Products would send sales flyers with recently purchased histories on the front cover.
Bottom line, I don't want people to know anything about me, my shopping habits, or even confirming that I live at a certain address. I always shred and/or black out my name and address before I recycle. I enjoy my privacy!
I'm all for printing, I earn a living from it but seriously the junk mail is getting out of control. The do not call list (albeit, not too effective), and the anti-spam laws were a start. If we in the printing industry aren't careful, any unsolicited mail may eventually get banned.
Add to that the new QR codes and other stupid things for stupid "smart" (or rather dumbass) phones, and eventually spam is going to be out of control. I already get unsolicited spam text messages on my phone.
Oh, my business has been doing direct mailings for years. Some made in house some made by outsourced professional. Some static and some with fancy variables. Bottom line result was always the same; we didn't earn sh*t back from the marketing efforts.
Now here's a heated debate and hard truth for people in our industry to understand and this contradicts what the printing trade publications and associations say; but people DO NOT want spam mail in their box. They simply don't!
I mean come on! How stupid are some of the people in our own industry!?!? When was the last time you got junk mail and said oh thank lordy lordy, I'm so glad someone from a company I never heard of before is telling me about something I don't want! Well maybe you have said that, if so you're a freak.
I pull out all the bills in the mail everyday and at the end of every week it takes me a good hour to go through all the other BS. I get about a trash bag a week of shredded paper and with all the catalogs and magazines, the recycle place is doing quite well in my area!
I too appreciate the beauty of a good piece of litho printed literature; be it a good book or SOLICITED magazine.
Digital Insight
Well-known member
BEST Digital Press IMO is the Xerox Colorpress 800 / 1000
IF
#1 you DO NOT need matte finish
#2 you DO NOT need to exceed 13x19 sheet size
only problem is that XEROX has there head so far up their own as s on the "click" rate that the ColorPress in an UN - SELL - ABLE box right now
.057 VARIABLE click rate on a 5 year lease?
Ya right.....
Idiots....
Rob
IF
#1 you DO NOT need matte finish
#2 you DO NOT need to exceed 13x19 sheet size
only problem is that XEROX has there head so far up their own as s on the "click" rate that the ColorPress in an UN - SELL - ABLE box right now
.057 VARIABLE click rate on a 5 year lease?
Ya right.....
Idiots....
Rob
To me it is simple. The best press is the one that:
you can afford and
the selling company will give you the best service for maximiun up time and
a click rate that allows you to make money and
a product that you can sell.
The best press is totally individual. You buy what suits you the best for the next few years, looking past that is risky at this time.
Simple.
you can afford and
the selling company will give you the best service for maximiun up time and
a click rate that allows you to make money and
a product that you can sell.
The best press is totally individual. You buy what suits you the best for the next few years, looking past that is risky at this time.
Simple.
Interesting read....
Ive run Igen and Nexpress both now.
Igen-pro: speed, consistency, volume. con: Wish front end had more "oomph" Not much in the way of operator support. simple errors sometimes leave you stranded briefly.
Nexpress-pro: bada$$ front end software, high quality. con: High quality comes at cost of supplies, and up time.
Igen fits our mold better. Quick turn high volume VDP, and I can get it to look more "offset" than a Nexy.
thought I would miss the Nexpress, but I really don't. Igen wins out....Unless you are doing one of those problem jobs with nasty paper. Nexpress had more options to mess with press settings. Igen (freeflow) Front end leaves you hanging a little.... still doable, but there is more headscratching.
Ive run Igen and Nexpress both now.
Igen-pro: speed, consistency, volume. con: Wish front end had more "oomph" Not much in the way of operator support. simple errors sometimes leave you stranded briefly.
Nexpress-pro: bada$$ front end software, high quality. con: High quality comes at cost of supplies, and up time.
Igen fits our mold better. Quick turn high volume VDP, and I can get it to look more "offset" than a Nexy.
thought I would miss the Nexpress, but I really don't. Igen wins out....Unless you are doing one of those problem jobs with nasty paper. Nexpress had more options to mess with press settings. Igen (freeflow) Front end leaves you hanging a little.... still doable, but there is more headscratching.
kingpd@businessprints.net
Well-known member
So what do people mean when they say that the Igen will bankrupt a lot of people? Price and electricity costs???
I suppose It will bankrupt you if you do low volumes, maybe? I've not heard that one.
I think if you use it the right way, you will be fine. It IS expensive(lease), but what printer isn't? When you don't do much volume, you will feel it for sure, we have.
as far as electricity cost goes, I shut it off If I am not going to use it for a few days. Maybe if you leave it in ready....? I'm not sure what that one means either.
I think if you use it the right way, you will be fine. It IS expensive(lease), but what printer isn't? When you don't do much volume, you will feel it for sure, we have.
as far as electricity cost goes, I shut it off If I am not going to use it for a few days. Maybe if you leave it in ready....? I'm not sure what that one means either.
Digital Insight
Well-known member
Plan on spending an extra $1200 PER month on your power bill IF you install an IGEN.
They LOVE power. Love it.
Uses TWO 220 lines and 80AMP at max. Plus A/C "chiller" unit runs full time.
$$$
They LOVE power. Love it.
Uses TWO 220 lines and 80AMP at max. Plus A/C "chiller" unit runs full time.
$$$
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