carbonless collator

[Philem]

Hello. I have an old CP Bourg BT 12 friction collator (from the nineties !) that I want to replace with a newer machine because it makes a lot of stops regardless of the settings.
I use it almost exclusively for assembling carbonless paper (2, 3, 4 or 5 parts). I'm wondering if I should get a suction or friction model? I am thinking of a used Duplo DC 10 60 (suction) what is your experience?

 

[jwheeler]

First, that's quite impressive for that unit to last nearly 30 years. Perhaps a newer CP Bourg would be a good idea since it's proven itself over these years. I haven't used the Duplo collators personally, but Duplo tends to be a solid brand, and suction is always better since you don't have friction wheels that wear out and slip.

I am curious about why you're collating NCR though. We run a couple of pallets of NCR forms each week (2-5 parts) and we purchase it pre-collated. If we happen to need unique color orders, we can buy the individual colors and let our Konica pull from separate drawers and collate as it prints. What is your process?

 

[pippip]

Just to share processes. we'd be setup like the op. Majority of our NCR is 2 or 3 part and would be in book form and numbered.
So we'd print, then number and perf top copy/middle copies, number bottom copy with no perf (on Morgana FSN), then collate, staple, tape and trim.
We've come from litho to digital so perhaps our method could be better adjusted? advice welcome.

We have a very old friction fed, like op it can be hit or miss on jams.

 

[jwheeler]

Just to share processes. we'd be setup like the op. Majority of our NCR is 2 or 3 part and would be in book form and numbered.
So we'd print, then number and perf top copy/middle copies, number bottom copy with no perf (on Morgana FSN), then collate, staple, tape and trim.
We've come from litho to digital so perhaps our method could be better adjusted? advice welcome.

We have a very old friction fed, like op it can be hit or miss on jams.

We make alot of the stapled NCR books with the manilla wrap around covers as well...and they are numbered. However, we've streamlined the process where the collating and numbering is all done on our Konica's. We use VDP (Variable data printing) to number the forms. We purchase the NCR pre-perforated. The Appleton line of carbonless offers the NCR with a 1/2" perf on either the short or long edge...available in 9x11 or 8.5x11.5. I'm sure any paper vendor can supply this. We haven't used our offline machine to perf or number for the last 3 years...save's so many steps and time.

The initial obstacle was that we numbered in red, as most shops do. We asked the clients if they cared if the numbers were in black instead and not a single one has objected. If someone insisted on red, we could run the VDP on our color printers and just make the first page red and the subsequent pages black since that's how they'd appear when crash numbered. This will save on click costs.

 

[Philem]

Thank you for sharing your experience. We mainly make stapled NCR books.

The eventual acquisition of the Duplo 10-60 is due to an opportunity.

We mainly use a "traditional" Riso duplicator to print on 16# carbonless, as well as a Riso inkjet (Comcolor) and a Konica Minolta C2060 digital press for very short runs (16# or 20#).
The carbonless is then assembled with the collator (the duplicator has only one feeder).
The numerous stops on the collator make us lose a lot of time, the rest works well except for the Comcolor which stops regularly too (double or false starts whatever the feed settings and even when changing the rollers).

We could use the press more, at least when there is no back side (it systematically jams on the back side on 16#), but the technician who maintains it strongly advised me against printing carbonless regularly or in quantities greater than a few thousand sheets because, according to him, it cause a build up of chemical on the rollers in the machine that should be avoided.

jwheeler, have you observed this problem and what consequences does it have concretely?

Finally, I think that a suction assembler would be better suited for carbonless copies coming off the press (it has only 3 drawers).

 

[jwheeler]

@Philem , I'm still trying to understand why you need to collate...? Do your customers require unique order of the color sheets that you can't get in the pre-collated sets?

We also have two Riso duplicators which we run the majority of our NCR jobs on. If it's one sided and doesn't require numbering...that's where we run it. Any 2-sided or numbered jobs go on the Konica 6136's. If we have forms where the 3rd part needs blocked out areas, that will also run on the Konica's. Really no need to collate off-line.

As for the coating that comes off onto the belts and rollers...yes, that is true. We've seen it especially on the main transport belt. The techs have to come and clean the rollers and belts every so often and we get to hear them complain about it. However, the approved media guide specifically lists the Appleton NCR paper so they can't tell us we're out of spec.

 

[Philem]

@jwheeler, thanks for your concern about our process and for all the clarification. I wish I didn't have to assemble anymore too.

But I'm going to have to continue for several reasons:
- many recurring jobs have sheet colors with specific orders that our customers are used to
- some forms have the 1st part in full color but not the following ones
- until now we respect the technician's instruction to avoid NCR volumes on the press but if this is no longer the case, as we are at the end of our contract, I fear that they will increase our price per click.
- The carbonless we use is not in the Konica Minolta recommendations here in Europe (in France to be more precise). They recommend Giroform digital, which is 20#, is more expensive than 16# litho and is not available from our usual supplier.

So I'm thinking of buying this collator (affordable and in good condition), hoping to save time, but I'm trying to figure out if a suction collator is really going to make a difference in terms of productivity over a friction one, I'm not totally convinced.
One day the press tech told me that one of his customers equipped with a Konica Minolta press with the suction feeder was having problems with the carbonless paper!

 

[jwheeler]

Understood @Philem. Since we don't use a collator, I can't give you advice on friction vs vacuum. I tend to lean towards suction feed simply because there are no feed tires to wear out and slip over time. But you mentioned that your Bourg unit worked for all those years, so it sounds like friction will do the job!