CMYK prints the same on every printer!!!

[PrintFX]

Hello,

OK my first post... I'm running with a couple of Epson Surecolours which I've calibrated myself.

I've been supplied artwork many times with CMYK values stated for certain parts as well as Pantone references. Now I'd normally ignore the CMYK values and match to the Pantone as best I could, but I have a customer who is insistant that I use the CMYK values!

I've told them that this won't guarantee a match to the Pantone but they don't understand why, plus they have said that they have another supplier who is printing the same artwork and mine will need to match.

I explained that the same cmyk makeup will print differently between printers but I don't seem to be getting anywhere!

Have I got completely the wrong idea or should all printers print the same?

Please help!

 

[arkay_desai]

Hi,

We are using delta values to match and print.

 

[PrintFX]

yes i usually take delta readings and try to get it under 3 (depending on the colour), I can match to the required colours if I alter the cmyk myself, but the customer is adamant that the cmyk they've given will match

 

[Paul Santer]

Sounds like your going to have a tough job explaining things to your customer if they think all CMYK Devices Print the same.
If you have a RIP that you can edit the Spot Colour Lookup Table, why don't you just get a sample of what they are trying to match and edit the Spot Colour Library to get the closest match on your device and Substrate?

 

[PrintFX]

yes the rips have spot colour tables, but i can only speciify Lab values!

I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing a trick somewhere.

Is it just a common mis-conception by customers that supplying a CMYK to a printer will produce the expected colour?

Other common mis-conceptions;
- The CMYKs I supply will look as they do on my screen
- The CMYK i give the printer will look how I want it to
- I'll send the same file to 2 different printers and they'll look the same when printed
- I'll give the printer CMYK values from the Pantone book, that way it'll match the Pantone I want

All of which are obviously twoddle as there are too many factors to take into account (ink system, gamut, printer/manufacturer, heat, substrate, humidity, what pants i've got on!)

Please tell me that I'm not talking rubbish!

 

[Schnitzel]

Of course it's a misconception! The majority of graphic artists I've worked with didn't understand or even know this simple fact: that every combination of printer-ink-paper will produce a different visual color out of the same set of CMYK numbers.

It's a simple matter to prove this: print the same CMYK values that the client sent, on 2 radically different papers, and show them the results.

 

[gordo]

I'm running with a couple of Epson Surecolours which I've calibrated myself.

I've been supplied artwork many times with CMYK values stated for certain parts as well as Pantone references. Now I'd normally ignore the CMYK values and match to the Pantone as best I could, but I have a customer who is insistant that I use the CMYK values!

I've told them that this won't guarantee a match to the Pantone but they don't understand why, plus they have said that they have another supplier who is printing the same artwork and mine will need to match.

I explained that the same cmyk makeup will print differently between printers but I don't seem to be getting anywhere!

Have I got completely the wrong idea or should all printers print the same?

Well, your customer may think that you've set up your Epsons to represent an industry (ISO) color specification, in which case the same CMYK values will print reasonably close across different printers and will produce the expected color.
The Pantone "Solid in Process" swatchbook shows the difference between spot colors and what Pantone thinks is offset printing simulating those colors. Some printshops print out posters of Pantone swatches so that customers (and even the printers themselves) can choose which CMYK patch best matches a given spot color. I.e. if, for example you want the best match to Pantone 123 you might actually specify Pantone 124 instead.
Alternatively you can print out a Color Atlas ( The Print Guide: The Color Atlas - helping designers to specify color ). That shows all the CMYK combinations, so all you have to do is find the best CMYK simulation to the actual spot sample in your, or the customer's, swatchbook.


best, gordo

 

[Louis Dery]

Well, your customer may think that you've set up your Epsons to represent an industry (ISO) color specification, in which case the same CMYK values will print reasonably close across different printers and will produce the expected color.
The Pantone "Solid in Process" swatchbook shows the difference between spot colors and what Pantone thinks is offset printing simulating those colors.

Hello Gordo,

Do you think that the CMYK values defined in the Pantone+ Color Bridge Coated guide are OK for the North American offset printing based on their (Pantone) printing specs found in the first page of the guide?
Let me know if you know printing shop that are able to use those CMYK numbers in order to get close match.
I don’t refer to vivid Pantone colours.

 

[Colorblind]

Please correct me if my methodology is wrong but if a Pantone Coated value is supplied, let say Pantone 533C, both my Adobe and inRip *Lab librairies for this are L: 20 a: 1 b: -20. Now I want to make my own CMYK match and since I proof to Gracol, I just need to translate that lab value to GracolC1 profile CMYK absolute colorimetric rendering and I get 94c 75m 23y 53k.

 

[Louis Dery]

Hello Colorblind,

That is exactly what Pantone Color Manger utility does!
This way, you get the best Pantone simulation CMYK values for your printing condition!

 

[Colorblind]

Thanks Louis, I don't deal that much with Pantone swatches but that's the methodology I apply when spectro-reading custom color patches and it worked well so far.

 

[gordo]

Hello Gordo,

Do you think that the CMYK values defined in the Pantone+ Color Bridge Coated guide are OK for the North American offset printing based on their (Pantone) printing specs found in the first page of the guide?

Nope. That's why I wrote "what Pantone thinks is offset printing". I don't believe that Pantone bases their CMYK simulations on any industry print characteristic specification.
The Solid in Process is useful for helping creatives to understand the limitations of matching spot colors using process even though you might be able to achieve a better colormetric match using your own screen builds.

Let me know if you know printing shop that are able to use those CMYK numbers in order to get close match.
I don’t refer to vivid Pantone colours.

The vast majority of print shops that I've visited use the canned screen tint values built into their applications for simulating spot colors. For most, I guess there's no perceived ROI for creating their own shop specific builds. If the customer uses spot colors to specify process colors they're already a lost cause.

best, gordo

 

[Louis Dery]

Nope. That's why I wrote "what Pantone thinks is offset printing". I don't believe that Pantone bases their CMYK simulations on any industry print characteristic specification.
The Solid in Process is useful for helping creatives to understand the limitations of matching spot colors using process even though you might be able to achieve a better colormetric match using your own screen builds.

Thanks Gordo, I agree with you at 100% Cyan ;-)

 

[Paul Santer]

yes the rips have spot colour tables, but i can only speciify Lab values!

I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing a trick somewhere.

Is it just a common mis-conception by customers that supplying a CMYK to a printer will produce the expected colour?

Other common mis-conceptions;
- The CMYKs I supply will look as they do on my screen
- The CMYK i give the printer will look how I want it to
- I'll send the same file to 2 different printers and they'll look the same when printed
- I'll give the printer CMYK values from the Pantone book, that way it'll match the Pantone I want

All of which are obviously twoddle as there are too many factors to take into account (ink system, gamut, printer/manufacturer, heat, substrate, humidity, what pants i've got on!)

Please tell me that I'm not talking rubbish!

I would agree with gordo's assumption that your customer probably thinks that your large format printing device will print to some generic ISO CMYK standard.
I think a few of the large format RIP's have the ability to generate a Colour Atlas based on a specific Spot Colour or Measured Sample, maybe take a look at the Documentation that came with your RIP.

 

[PrintFX]

I usually have the profiles set up using FOGRA39, which usually sees me good for most Pantone spot colours (vivids not included), for anything that doesn't match too well, or when i need a higher gamut I'll switch off the ICCs print a bunch of swatches of varying CMYKs and choose the best match to put into my file.

Is it generally the rule that print shops will run with ICCs and use Pantone spot colours in the files?

 

[Paul Santer]

I usually have the profiles set up using FOGRA39, which usually sees me good for most Pantone spot colours (vivids not included), for anything that doesn't match too well, or when i need a higher gamut I'll switch off the ICCs print a bunch of swatches of varying CMYKs and choose the best match to put into my file.

Is it generally the rule that print shops will run with ICCs and use Pantone spot colours in the files?

I have no idea what the general rule is for Large Format, most will have ICC built in to the system but how often they override it I couldn't tell you.
Large Format is very different from conventional Offset so achieving set standards may be complicated with the huge range of Device capabilities and Substrate options.
I'm more in favour of standardising a procedure for producing a repeatable result than Printing to a specific Standard.
If a customer specifies a Print Condition and Pantone Colours within the Supplied file I personally would get as close as possible within the limitations of Device and Substrate.
I suppose it's just down to understanding the limitations of your Device and Substrate Mix and setting Customer expectations ideally at an early stage based on your Production limitations.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Neither Pantone nor CMYK is complete without the output intent. The problem is an educational one, and this is one reason I moved from production to education. But (many) design schools (possibly due to design teachers) don't want to be limited to the real world, and so young designers learn that "production people mess up their design" and come with a very naive understanding of Pantone and CMYK. Pantone is an INK not a colour, "Pantone Solid Coated" is a more precise definition, …same with CMYK, "CMYK under ISO Coated v2", "CMYK value defined in FOGRA 39" would be the correct way to define a colour in a branding manual. Students/designers will need to see a physical patch of the same INK on different substrates and to get the "Aha"-experience.

Taking a whiteboard marker red and showing the colour difference on the whiteboard and on a sheet of normal office paper can sometimes give the same revelation.

 

[Louis Dery]

Hello Lukas,

I agree with you!
I am working in production AND education/training. You are right… understanding what is a solid Pantone, Pantone simulation (in CMYK) and CMYK color recipes base on a specific print condition IS THE KEY they have to learn and understand!

 

[PrintFX]

GREAT!

Thanks all for your responses, it's just backed up my thoughts that it's the customer that needs to be educated in understanding that simply supplying CMYKs cannot guarantee the right colour.

Now onto my questions on ICCs...

 

[Stephen Marsh]

If the file is setup with a true spot colour, then it may not matter if they define the build using CMYK, RGB or Lab values. When the inkjet RIP converts the spot colour to device values, it will often use a colour lookup table that will override the spot colour build values in the file and use the values in the RIP. The LUT may use Lab values, or perhaps device values for a given media, resolution etc. The end result being that the full available gamut of the device is used to reproduce the spot colour, the spot colour is not limited to a CMYK press gamut. Some RIPs can be set to use the CMYK values in the spot colour build rather than being overridden by the LUT values. It may be RIP dependent on whether the spot colour CMYK values are assumed to be device values or CMYK press values.

Stephen Marsh