As a designer what are the best ways to submit colored body copy for print. I know 100% K and using more sans serif fonts for 6 pt text. But what if my customer wants a to have his text a color. Now I I get so far is that I can make a color build like C56 M45 Y6 K2 into C56 M45 Y0 K0. Another option I was given was to make one plate 100% to give clean defined lines in the test then use another plate at a lower % for changing the hue some. Another is to use a spot color for the text. Even make one color overprint in areas where a flat color is used (but how do you show the customer a composit proof for this is a mystery) Are these good practices or do you guys have other solutions. Also, one designer told me that i fyou cannot get your printer to register your body copy with any build you should get a better printer-is this a fair remark.
Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
- Thread starter russpears
- Start date
Tech
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
An interesting questions here, we had a similar issue regarding small type at 6pt and our production person insisted that we use spot color instead of 4/C on such small type. This is text on white/paper color, TBH, I usually see registration issue when type is against color colored background but not when against white/paper.
An interesting questions here, we had a similar issue regarding small type at 6pt and our production person insisted that we use spot color instead of 4/C on such small type. This is text on white/paper color, TBH, I usually see registration issue when type is against color colored background but not when against white/paper.
gordo
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
RE: Wow. Would you say this even with newsprint. I'm not a printer, but it seems that registering 10 point, four color body text would be next to impossible. Is this not the case?
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It depends on the screening being used (plus the quality of the presswork) I can send you examples of type much smaller that 10pt being reproduced on newsprint.
gordo
RE: Wow. Would you say this even with newsprint. I'm not a printer, but it seems that registering 10 point, four color body text would be next to impossible. Is this not the case?
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It depends on the screening being used (plus the quality of the presswork) I can send you examples of type much smaller that 10pt being reproduced on newsprint.
gordo
jwilson@tracypress
Member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
Specification for Newsprint Advertising Production
SNAP guidelines
Typography and rules
Fine lines and small type
Reproduce as one color only all rules that are 4 point and thinner and small sans-serif type 7 points and smaller; serif type 12 points and smaller; fine serif type (eg, Bodoni) 14 points and smaller.
They go on about reverse type as well.
As a newspaper we see CMYK for Black way to often. So much so that I've taken to calling CMYK for black as CRAP.
At the newspaper speeds it very hard to keep all the (CRAP) colors in register as well as the other pages attached.
Specification for Newsprint Advertising Production
SNAP guidelines
Typography and rules
Fine lines and small type
Reproduce as one color only all rules that are 4 point and thinner and small sans-serif type 7 points and smaller; serif type 12 points and smaller; fine serif type (eg, Bodoni) 14 points and smaller.
They go on about reverse type as well.
As a newspaper we see CMYK for Black way to often. So much so that I've taken to calling CMYK for black as CRAP.
At the newspaper speeds it very hard to keep all the (CRAP) colors in register as well as the other pages attached.
bluskool
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
Ok, that is what I had thought. We generally try to follow the SNAP specs here.
Out of curiosity, how do you handle the CRAP colors?
When I get an ad with build black text that has already been rasterized, I find I can fix it by pulling into Photoshop at a high resolution and use selective color to pull the other channels out of K and bump K up to 100. Usually, I have to do this twice before it will get solid (I have an action set up for this because of how often it is needed). A quick marquee selection is necessary sometimes when there is a continuous tone image involved that has deep shadows.
Ok, that is what I had thought. We generally try to follow the SNAP specs here.
Out of curiosity, how do you handle the CRAP colors?
When I get an ad with build black text that has already been rasterized, I find I can fix it by pulling into Photoshop at a high resolution and use selective color to pull the other channels out of K and bump K up to 100. Usually, I have to do this twice before it will get solid (I have an action set up for this because of how often it is needed). A quick marquee selection is necessary sometimes when there is a continuous tone image involved that has deep shadows.
Lower Case
Member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
I think that CTP has improved the general quality of registration and plates so much that you can often get away with four color builds even of small type -- at least in sheet-fed litho. We recently did something with a line of 6pt Helvetica Condensed in 100/8/26/38, and it was fine. But when I started in the industry twelve years ago and we were still running film, my boss would have told me never to even attempt something like that.
Newsprint is much less tolerant, of course ...
I think that CTP has improved the general quality of registration and plates so much that you can often get away with four color builds even of small type -- at least in sheet-fed litho. We recently did something with a line of 6pt Helvetica Condensed in 100/8/26/38, and it was fine. But when I started in the industry twelve years ago and we were still running film, my boss would have told me never to even attempt something like that.
Newsprint is much less tolerant, of course ...
rich apollo
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
As someone mentioned earlier, that's just not gonna' happen in web work - at least not consistently. If you're going below about 12 pt then single color is the way to go. The earlier suggestion to go with a spot color is completely and totally fair. If the creative is insistent upon small colored type - the suggestion to run it as a spot color is a display of the printer's concern for quality.
Yes, FM screening will minimize the affects of misregister, but multicolored type in small sizes is poor design. On top of being difficult (or impossible) to run (depending on process and substrate) it is generally less legible.
I don't think John Barr's or Russell Spears comments earlier in the thread are at all fair. They don't take into account production process or substrate.
Let me pose the question differently,
If you decide that you must have small, multi-separation (or reverse) type and I have to slow the presses down to keep it in register - do I get to charge you for the extra press time required? Are you willing to pay for a higher quality substrate?
I think creatives bear far too little responsibility for understanding the capabilities of output processes. People get a little goofy about litho. We're not making Rembrandt's here. The point is to produce as many reproductions of acceptable quality as rapidly as possible. Art reproduction is a whole other matter - and you pay for it!
rich
As someone mentioned earlier, that's just not gonna' happen in web work - at least not consistently. If you're going below about 12 pt then single color is the way to go. The earlier suggestion to go with a spot color is completely and totally fair. If the creative is insistent upon small colored type - the suggestion to run it as a spot color is a display of the printer's concern for quality.
Yes, FM screening will minimize the affects of misregister, but multicolored type in small sizes is poor design. On top of being difficult (or impossible) to run (depending on process and substrate) it is generally less legible.
I don't think John Barr's or Russell Spears comments earlier in the thread are at all fair. They don't take into account production process or substrate.
Let me pose the question differently,
If you decide that you must have small, multi-separation (or reverse) type and I have to slow the presses down to keep it in register - do I get to charge you for the extra press time required? Are you willing to pay for a higher quality substrate?
I think creatives bear far too little responsibility for understanding the capabilities of output processes. People get a little goofy about litho. We're not making Rembrandt's here. The point is to produce as many reproductions of acceptable quality as rapidly as possible. Art reproduction is a whole other matter - and you pay for it!
rich
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
Good points, Rich. I agree about replacing small point sizes with spot inks. We have a rule here, that small point sizes of type, if not spot colors, should be at least 70% of one color. It's hard to enforce, but a good rule of thumb.
As for the idea that printers that can't register that kind of type are bad, all of my A-list printers will call me up, and say "..we suggest running this eeny-weeny type as a spot color..." They would rather eliminate the variable, than call me up at 2am, to ask "what's more important, this small type, or your fancy high res images...?"
oh and by the way... small font sizes are a crapshoot on uncoated paper, and my dad can't read them, even if they are crisp spot colors. ;-)
Good points, Rich. I agree about replacing small point sizes with spot inks. We have a rule here, that small point sizes of type, if not spot colors, should be at least 70% of one color. It's hard to enforce, but a good rule of thumb.
As for the idea that printers that can't register that kind of type are bad, all of my A-list printers will call me up, and say "..we suggest running this eeny-weeny type as a spot color..." They would rather eliminate the variable, than call me up at 2am, to ask "what's more important, this small type, or your fancy high res images...?"
oh and by the way... small font sizes are a crapshoot on uncoated paper, and my dad can't read them, even if they are crisp spot colors. ;-)
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
I was not advocating anything about the best way to color build, I am wanting to know what are some of the best ways to do it for the printers. As a designer I feel we should be able to understand more of the process. But as a designer that believes this, I need to get familiar with the process and its limits. All of these comments have been printed out and studied and I look to getting better at prepress and design.
I was not advocating anything about the best way to color build, I am wanting to know what are some of the best ways to do it for the printers. As a designer I feel we should be able to understand more of the process. But as a designer that believes this, I need to get familiar with the process and its limits. All of these comments have been printed out and studied and I look to getting better at prepress and design.
Tech
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
While we are still on this topic, let's say we knockout 8pt white text against a rich black... what are the odds of having that trapping correctly? 8pt does seem small and thin... but if some good press can manage to trap photoshop images to within a pixel... this makes 8pt look plenty doesn't it?
While we are still on this topic, let's say we knockout 8pt white text against a rich black... what are the odds of having that trapping correctly? 8pt does seem small and thin... but if some good press can manage to trap photoshop images to within a pixel... this makes 8pt look plenty doesn't it?
Tech
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
Hi Russell,
Most designers don't even care about the production aspect of the business, I'm glad you are here asking legit questions. Like I mention previously, we had a case with 5pt~7pt text set in 4C and our production kill it and make it a spot. It's a very legit concern how it will reproduce and trapping issue.
As a rule I always stop at 6pts as far as usage of font size and recommend increasing font weight. Certainly, I'm not advocating against the use of small type with 4C. It just needs to be address correctly and give printers a heads up as well. I don't like how our production follow a rule blindly without checking in with printer or run a proof first. Every press is different and people whom run them certain have different skills, some are more capable than others.
Hi Russell,
Most designers don't even care about the production aspect of the business, I'm glad you are here asking legit questions. Like I mention previously, we had a case with 5pt~7pt text set in 4C and our production kill it and make it a spot. It's a very legit concern how it will reproduce and trapping issue.
As a rule I always stop at 6pts as far as usage of font size and recommend increasing font weight. Certainly, I'm not advocating against the use of small type with 4C. It just needs to be address correctly and give printers a heads up as well. I don't like how our production follow a rule blindly without checking in with printer or run a proof first. Every press is different and people whom run them certain have different skills, some are more capable than others.
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
This forum has put everything into this question and I really believe it has been argued from every perspective. I feel more comfortable with this issue now and I am really hoping to give back to this group as much as I have been given.
Thanks very very much.
This forum has put everything into this question and I really believe it has been argued from every perspective. I feel more comfortable with this issue now and I am really hoping to give back to this group as much as I have been given.
Thanks very very much.
rich apollo
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
> {quote:title=Tech wrote:}{quote}
> While we are still on this topic, let's say we knockout 8pt white text against a rich black... what are the odds of having that trapping correctly? 8pt does seem small and thin... but if some good press can manage to trap photoshop images to within a pixel... this makes 8pt look plenty doesn't it?
Happy,
there are a couple of variables that'll effect this.
1) If the background color contains 100% black (vector based), then a spreadback can be generated. A spreadback is basically a reverse trap where the CMY are pulled away from the reversed letter form to leave only black. You won't notice it and it protects from misregister just like any trap.
2) Serifs at that scale are liable to plug (or fill in). Depends on ink, substrate, process...
3) If that reverse type is on a CT, then you're hosed...
What you say about a good press trapping photoshop images to within a pixel is not quite accurate. Those pixels can come in different sizes. Pixels in an image at 72 ppi are far different in scale than the pixels in an image of 600 ppi. And generally it's the lack of hard edges in CT's that makes misregister less apparent.
Russell, you asked about FM screening. I believe the miniscule dots used in FM are what mask misregister. To put it in perspective, I'd guess that the most commonly used stochastic screens are around 20 microns. That means that the dots are about the size of a 1 or 2% dot at 175 lpi. Gordon will know for sure. He's forgotten more about screening than most of us are ever gonna' learn.
rich
> {quote:title=Tech wrote:}{quote}
> While we are still on this topic, let's say we knockout 8pt white text against a rich black... what are the odds of having that trapping correctly? 8pt does seem small and thin... but if some good press can manage to trap photoshop images to within a pixel... this makes 8pt look plenty doesn't it?
Happy,
there are a couple of variables that'll effect this.
1) If the background color contains 100% black (vector based), then a spreadback can be generated. A spreadback is basically a reverse trap where the CMY are pulled away from the reversed letter form to leave only black. You won't notice it and it protects from misregister just like any trap.
2) Serifs at that scale are liable to plug (or fill in). Depends on ink, substrate, process...
3) If that reverse type is on a CT, then you're hosed...
What you say about a good press trapping photoshop images to within a pixel is not quite accurate. Those pixels can come in different sizes. Pixels in an image at 72 ppi are far different in scale than the pixels in an image of 600 ppi. And generally it's the lack of hard edges in CT's that makes misregister less apparent.
Russell, you asked about FM screening. I believe the miniscule dots used in FM are what mask misregister. To put it in perspective, I'd guess that the most commonly used stochastic screens are around 20 microns. That means that the dots are about the size of a 1 or 2% dot at 175 lpi. Gordon will know for sure. He's forgotten more about screening than most of us are ever gonna' learn.
rich
Tech
Well-known member
Re: Color Builds for Body Copy and small print.
Hi Rich,
1) I agree on serif fonts, another factor we do avoid when dealing with knockout type on rich black.
2) I too agree on on different in pixel size. Recently, we trapped a dozen photoshop images (600ppi) to within a pixel, our color proofs from printer appears correct with no noticible mis-registration. Of course, we didn't check it under a microscope....
Hi Rich,
1) I agree on serif fonts, another factor we do avoid when dealing with knockout type on rich black.
2) I too agree on on different in pixel size. Recently, we trapped a dozen photoshop images (600ppi) to within a pixel, our color proofs from printer appears correct with no noticible mis-registration. Of course, we didn't check it under a microscope....
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