Colour managing a Di Press...

[Disappointed]

Hi all,

I run an in-plant printers in Hertfordshire, UK, we have a Presstek 52Di with a Momentum / Harlequin Genesis v7.1 rip with colour-pro enabled.

We are trying to find out how to profile the press, so we can improve colour matching. Being in-plant we only use a couple of papers and one ink-set so profiling seems a good idea for extreme colour matching.

We have printed the ECI testchart at our standard weights on our most common paper. These were then read and converted with profilemaker 5.0 to give us an ICC profile.

In the rip we have the press linearisation file specified in "Actual Press" and the colourpro page setup listed in the colour management box. In the colorpro page, we have EuroFogra27 in the "Input profile" box which is the profile that our jobs arrive with in PDF form. In the "Output Profile" box we have placed our press profile made earlier.

When we installed the press profile, it was installed as an output device with settings of "Printing Press", "CMYK" & "Linear from" set to "Linear".

This all seems ok but when we rip a job, it comes out with only about half the ink coverage it needs, the images are *very* pale and washed out. If we install the press profile as any other than "Linear", we get rip errors and the page setup warns that output profile does not match press calibration "Linear".

How do we make the system work properly while using a press linearisation file as well as colourpro??

I know its a tough one and all answers will be greatly appreciated.

Yours
Dave

 

[[email protected]]

why not ask presstek?

why not ask presstek?

Why not ask The burning bushes in New Hampshire for help?

 

[Disappointed]

Hmm, ok so either no-one does accurate colour matching on a DI or it's a trade secret and not to be divulged at any cost!

Surely it can't be that difficult to set up?

And OffsetGuy, I did ask the burning bushes and their pre-press guy said there were supposed to be some knowledgeable people on this forum tyhat would be glad to help.

 

[Louis Dery]

Hmm, ok so either no-one does accurate colour matching on a DI or it's a trade secret and not to be divulged at any cost!

Surely it can't be that difficult to set up?

And OffsetGuy, I did ask the burning bushes and their pre-press guy said there were supposed to be some knowledgeable people on this forum tyhat would be glad to help.

Hello Disapointed,
There’s absolutely a solution in order to get colour accurate colour matching on a DI!
PerfX Press Curvesâ„¢ for gray balance curves; then PerfX Color management Proâ„¢ for press profiling; and finally PerfX Device Link Proâ„¢ for ICC device link profile creation for color management in-RIP.
Perfect results the first time! No iterative process or tweaking.

You can contact Crisp Digital (Crisp Digital - Prepress Software Sales and Distribution for Dynagram imposition solutions, Enfocus preflighting software, Fusion Systems RIPs and RIP plugins, Hamillroad roaming and softproofing, Lucid Dream trapping and proofing, TGLC ICC Profiles ) for help in your region.

Louis

 

[sxp]

May be you want to check your GCR setting in the profile and make sure in the rip it honors the input profile from the file rather than overwriting to Fogra27.

 

[Disappointed]

Hello Disapointed,
There’s absolutely a solution in order to get colour accurate colour matching on a DI!
PerfX Press Curvesâ„¢ for gray balance curves; then PerfX Color management Proâ„¢ for press profiling; and finally PerfX Device Link Proâ„¢ for ICC device link profile creation for color management in-RIP.
Perfect results the first time! No iterative process or tweaking.

You can contact Crisp Digital (Crisp Digital - Prepress Software Sales and Distribution for Dynagram imposition solutions, Enfocus preflighting software, Fusion Systems RIPs and RIP plugins, Hamillroad roaming and softproofing, Lucid Dream trapping and proofing, TGLC ICC Profiles ) for help in your region.

Louis

Hmm, thanks for that but it sounds very expensive and re-inventing the wheel when we already have 99% of this system in place just not configured correctly. I will contact them anyway.

Dave

 

[encompus]

How was the RIP set up before the ECI Testchart was sent to the DI. This will make a big difference. Essentially the RIP settings should have ICC conversions disabled and only the use of density curves characterizing ink limits and linearizion. It sounds like you have the right configuration but when you mentioned everything was washed out I suspect the test-chart was printed with color management applied.

Marc

 

[LSW]

Sounds like encompus has hit the nail on the head for you. If you still have problems I might be able to come to you and help out. I was recently made redundant, live in Bucks and have some time on my hands!

 

[Disappointed]

How was the RIP set up before the ECI Testchart was sent to the DI. This will make a big difference. Essentially the RIP settings should have ICC conversions disabled and only the use of density curves characterizing ink limits and linearizion. It sounds like you have the right configuration but when you mentioned everything was washed out I suspect the test-chart was printed with color management applied.

Marc

HI,

the RIP was set for the "actual press" linearisation curve, no colour control, "intended press" was BVD/Fogra i believe. ICC control was turned off.

Thanks

Dave

 

[Disappointed]

Sounds like encompus has hit the nail on the head for you. If you still have problems I might be able to come to you and help out. I was recently made redundant, live in Bucks and have some time on my hands!

Hi, see my answer to encompus first. What position did you hold or what trade are you in? A visit/chat might be useful but i will need something to show the 'powers that be'

Thanks for the offer.

Dave

 

[LSW]

Hi Dave,

I was a CD102 minder in charge of printing to ISO12647-2 standard. I also work freelance for a colour management company. I hope you can get enough of a steer from this forum but if not I could pop and see you for a bit of fun!

 

[Wizards Fingers]

Hello Dave,

The issue that you have here is that you will need extra software / procedures in pre-press to maintain the standards which you require, I see in your note that you mention an ISO standard of FOGRA27, this has obviously now moved to Fogra39 which again is achievable with procedures both on and off press.

The results will be easy to maintain and also easy to setup and I advise that you work with your machine / rip supplier who as everybody is at present may still be coming to grips with the ISO standardisations.

Harlequin will allow the close monitoring of the PDF/x-3 - 4 standard ensuring that all elements in pre-press are FOGRA standard, the issue you then have and need to implement are the on-press monitoring capabilities, the Di Press has the PDSE and I presume that you are running ISO standard stocks and Inks, the TOYO INK is 2846-2 compliant.

Using Colorpro will give strange results with Black made from all CMY splits which will obviously effect the desired output and may be taking you off course, I would again suggest that you run the press to LAB values then split to densities which equate for the ISO standards, again this can be measured and matched to your FOGRA standard.

If your proofing solution is ISO compliant which I presume it is, and you are using PDF/X3-4 for ALL file output then the minor point of calibration figures to the ISO standard should be relatively simple.

I know for sure that the DI can maintain these standards, the press as you know is no different in the mechanics apart from Imaging and waterless capability than a standard offset press and methods to achieve the deisred standard.

 

[Disappointed]

Hi,
we used to use LAB on the old press. We have a Gretag Macbeth spectrophotometer with "Best-Match" capability, but since chjanging to the DI and Toyo inks, Best-Match fails on CMY. It is asking for things like 99% more magenta which is obviously wrong and suggests to me that the ink is the wrong hue for ISO.

It used to work well on the old standard press, we found our LAB colours using Best-Match then switched to density on the press as it was easier and it all worked. We cant get a best-match pass any more regardless of density.

Dave

 

[LSW]

What does the spectro give you as the closest expected deltaE for the primary colours? (without any colour management turned on)

 

[Wizards Fingers]

The ISO is achievable on your DI and the process to perform this will involve key players to work alongside each other, linking in the poofing technology with the Press matching system to ensure key repeatability to the ISO standard.

I will keep an eye in this thread and Im sure your issue will be resolved.

Good luck..

 

[Disappointed]

What does the spectro give you as the closest expected deltaE for the primary colours? (without any colour management turned on)

Hi, i've just been playing around with it and we get the following...

CYAN - dE=6.62 with density of 1.66, best-match fail
MAGENTA - dE=6.02 with density of 2.10, best-match fail
YELLOW - dE=4.58 with density of 1.24, best-match pass
BLACK - dE=1.60 with density of 2.17, best-match pass

These are solid density patches with no colour management applied.

Looking at these figures i would be happy to run with the black and yellow densities, but the magenta is off the richter scale and cyan is a bit high too. This would indicate that the TOYO inks are only half ISO standard.

I have checked our proof and get a best-match pass on all CKYK as expected.

Dave

 

[Wizards Fingers]

Figures

Figures

These figures are being printed with a colour curve applied?? If that is the case then you need to alter the curve to the ISO standards, the TOYO Inks are 2846-2 compliant so its simply down to the fact that by shear luck the Y & K are within tolerance, the C & M need to be altered to the ISO curve (FOGRA).

I presume that you are using default curves, which again may be out of date to your desired result.

 

[Wizards Fingers]

TOYO Inks and formulations

TOYO Inks and formulations

The TOYO inks are 2846-2 compliant, this is the ISO standard which all Ink manfucturers strive to achieve, as far as I am aware you have the tools to do the job but not the procedures.

 

[Disappointed]

When you say the C&M need to be altered, please explain.

These are solid density patches so the curves have absolutely no effect.

Do you mean use colour management to make composite solids?

Dave

 

[LSW]

Dave you are correct, the curves should have no effect on solids (but check with a high power magnifier to ensure there is no dot drop-out)
Which Toyo set are you using? What sequence are the inks running in? Is there any dirtying of the inks in the duct that could skew the hue of the cyan and magenta?