Control Separations when making a PDF

[pcmodem]

This originally started out in the following thread: http://printplanet.com/forums/adobe/23608-why-i-go-ps-instead-exporting-pdf#post148548 Rather than hijack the thread, I thought I would create a new one.

The Prepress Technician checks to make sure the file is built with the correct colors. Before we switched to a PDF workflow we were using a separated workflow. The ability to print just the colors required for the job, allowed for mistakes to be caught during the proofing process since the proof would only show what was going to print on press. This allowed for a second look at the proof to verify everything was correct. If something was missing on the proof, we went back to the file. No one is perfect and this process allowed for mistakes to be caught.

Layers could be used... if the file was built that way.

If PDF/Composite is so great, there shouldn't be a need for separations at all. By giving color control when creating a PDF, separations would slowly disappear.

As Matt Beals pointed out in the other thread, online proofing systems allow for viewing separations. In my opinion, controlling what separations view or print should be handled up stream. These online systems which view separations are great for those of us who understand the printing process of different colors in each unit of the press. The problem is the greater part of this world does not and majority of our customers are them.

Now if Acrobat had the ability to turn off individual Separations or Layers AND save the PDF. So Acrobat Reader would know NOT to view the individual Separations or Layers. It would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

You mean like in Acrobat pro one would be able to "hide" a separation so that it would be off in all PDF viewers until somone with a Pro would "un-hide" it?

With layers you can turn off the initial visibility, but not sure if all non Adobe PDF readers (or older versions of reader) honour that.

 

[pcmodem]

Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Did you post it on the feature request for next Acrobat? (or the next one after that, incase it is too far in the making)

 

[pcmodem]

I have not requested this particular feature for Acrobat, since I thought of it while writing this post. I will post it, depending on the feedback I receive.

 

[mattbeals]

As Leonard said, we can use existing PDF tools like callas pdfToolbox or PitStop Pro to put specific objects on layers. Creating a separated view requires Acrobat Pro. Otherwise you need to find a tool like Lucid Dream's iZoom product (which doesn't require a rocket scientist to use).

 

[pcmodem]

Matt/Dov,

Is there a particular reason why we shouldn't have the ability the print certain colors when Exporting a PDF?

 

[mattbeals]

Pre-separated workflows died a few years ago? You can export an individual layer from InDesign?

 

[pcmodem]

Is it possible to easily put an individual color from a photograph onto a layer in InDesign?

 

[mattbeals]

An individual photograph yes. The cyan separation of a color photograph no.

 

[pcmodem]

Being able to have just the cyan separation of a color photograph is what I and several other are talking about. We don't expect designers to perform the prepress work of working with individual separations. But we would like to make it easier to deal with on the prepress side.

 

[Shawn]

Matt/Dov,

Is there a particular reason why we shouldn't have the ability the print certain colors when Exporting a PDF?

Pre-separated workflows died a few years ago? You can export an individual layer from InDesign?

Apparently they're not quite dead, since people keep asking for this.

Seriously, though. I can think of a few times when this would be helpful, even with a modern workflow. We have to deal with a large number of files with specialty layers that are set to a separate spot color. It would be nice to be able to export just a "Gold Foil" or "Diecut" spot color directly out of InDesign to send off to our diemaker.

If we're creating those elements internally it's no problem to create them on a separate layer as you suggested, but we get a large number of PDFs from clients which either aren't layered or are in a PDF X format that doesn't support them. Instead of finding a workaround it would be much more efficient to have these types of simple tools built into InDesign.

Shawn

 

[mattbeals]

Do you really want a RIP in InDesign to process all the transparencies, overprint and such? It's not quite like it used to be with PageMaker...

You can export from InDesign to preserver the layers, optional content groups (so I don't chastised. Again... ). Once we have the PDF in Acrobat there are all sorts of things that we can do with callas pdfToolbox or PitStop Pro to move objects into OCG's, add them, delete them, control overprints, etc. If knew what parameters "Gold Foil" used then I could select those objects and create an OCG for those objects, hide the others, remove hidden and away I go. Or! I could just hide the non "Gold Foil" objects and send that off to the die maker so that they had full knowledge of how the die is intended to be used. Maybe there is some useful information in the art for the die maker(s)...

 

[Shawn]

Do you really want a RIP in InDesign to process all the transparencies, overprint and such? It's not quite like it used to be with PageMaker...

Ahhh, PageMaker... I remember the days... corrupted files... broken links... type reflow... when a prepress worker had to know arcane rituals to get a page to RIP. Actually I had to work on a PageMaker file yesterday. Two questions? Why won't it die--and where did I put my mistletoe?

But I digress.

For us it's just a matter of efficiency. It would be more efficient to create the PDFs for the diemaker in one step from InDesign when the print PDFs are created rather than roundtripping them through our workflow server or Acrobat and extracting the die info. The diecut, glitter, foils, etc are already created correctly in InDesign and set to overprint there. You can check them there with the separation preview (and with PDF X1a they get flattened there) so some sort of "RIPing" action is already taking place.

Many of the diemakers that we deal with have very specific file requirements and don't want anything in the die file other than the die lines. Elements on hidden layers would be a problem for them.

Anyway, I don't see this a huge problem, because the workarounds aren't THAT bad. It would just be nice to have the option to do it in one step instead of two. (Same goes for why we'd want to convert to grayscale during PDF export.)

Shawn

 

[mattbeals]

Put the dies and foils on their own layers and export a PDF of just that layer then. If you don't want flattened transparencies then use PDF/X-4. If you want a PDF/X compliant document then export a PDF/X-4p so you can keep transparency, keep ICC profiles (unconverted color(s)) and optional content groups. No need to use Acrobat for it then.

 

[pcmodem]

It looks like I am not the only one who would use this feature as a time savings technique. The ability for InDesign to controlling which colors print is already there based on it's ability to create separations. Now we just need this ability when exporting a composite PDF.

We are not saying this can't be done in workflows, we just want the ability within InDesign.

 

[Gregg]

I'm with ya! I would love the ability to export a sep straight from InDesign. Working for a book publisher, a workflow or something like Neo is not in the budget. Fortunately, I have Pitstop, but that took a long time to get.

I, literally, have to create "TextPlate" PDFs at least 10 times a day; whether it be for a reprint, a co-ed run, a ozalid change, or a patch for the printer to make film (yup, some of our backlist is still printed from film).

I do enforce a strict policy that requires designers to place all text (editable or hand-lettered) on a separate layer. So I could turn off all of the other layers before export, but would rather not have to do that - it's one extra step.

Also, regarding sending the composite PDF and letting the RIP separate it out, we are often emailing PDFs directly to printers in Asia/Europe, or uploading to someone's FTP site. So we need to keep file size to a minimum.

I understand that some of this workflow seems antiquated, but it is what it is.

 

[Glenn McDowall]

Count me in, in needing this feature.
Foil die makers tend to need really simple files, definitely no transparency or layers, even Overprint preview can be a problem.
Additionally it gets really complicated when the cmyk knocks out to form the shape of a foil separation.

 

[mattbeals]

So wouldn't creating a layer called "dieline" and moving the dieline object(s) onto that layer, hiding the previous layer and exporting only the visible layer accomplish what you need using tools already available in InDesign or Illustrator? Even Acrobat Pro too.

 

[pcmodem]

Another good example would be text books with answers in them. The file would be created so the answers are in the same text frame as the questions. The answers just happen to be in a different color.

To go through the entire book and make new text frames on a new layer to contain just the answers would be a nightmare and have a very high chance of errors. This is something just not worth it, but I am sure text book people would love this.

Just because a feature doesn't exist today, doesn't mean the new feature is a bad thing. Take a look at the ability to place native Photoshop documents.