Creo and KM6500 Problems

[exify]

I've been having some problems with the Creo and KM 6500.

- When impositioning with the Creo, any size 4x6 or under, has a problem recognizing the bleeds. The Creo will think the bottom bleed is part of the document, and that the top bleed doesn't exist. So my crop marks will be .125 off and finished trim product will hence be off-center by .125 (along with having no bleed on top).

I had a tech in here and he had no clue what I was saying, and didn't understand the problem. He blamed my properly made PDFs (with INDD crop marks), then suggested I change the trim size for a business card from 3.5 x 2 to 3.75 x 2.5. That made my INDD crop marks show instead of the Creo, so he said it was solved... adding a fake gutter so I get less-up is a work-around not a solution.

Calls to service manager are unreturned so I turn to you.

- When printing imposed sheets (imposed on Creo or elsewhere), the image seems to shrink. 4x6 cards will become 3.95x5.95, 8.5x11 will become 8.4 x 10.9. This isn't really a big deal, but it's annoying when I have postcards and I cut 6 inch, 6inch, 6inch, and then the last one ends up being messed up because I didn't realize they became 5.95.

- When printing on 13x19, the image is sometimes off-center... using the Creo to shift the position of the image results in the lead edge of the image being cut off. Even though there's still .375 margin existing. So there will be a blank .375 margin, then the image will start but will be cut off.

This doesn't involve the Creo:

- When printing on 12pt, about 2 inches from the trail edge, I get a jitter, or a .25 area where it seems like the paper got stuck and then started again. The image blurs or registration is off, then it goes back to normal.

This sounds like alot of complaints.... Whoops.

 

[exify]

can anyone help?

 

[TonyEnglund]

There's a lot of patches for the Creo RIP, and at least one that handles "minor" bugs in imposition.

If you check the "About" menu in the IC-304 menu you will see what version and which patches you have installed.

Yesterday the IC-304 version 2.1 was released which could be a good thing to install.

 

[UberTech]

Ok, step by step process here.

Print your job. Preview the job BEFORE you rip. This will open the job in acrobat. Does your image look in the center of the page? Save the PDF and post it here if you like. Under tools you can measure the distances between your image and the edge of the sheet.

It sounds like your image is not centerd and this will cause the effect you have. The creo crops from the center of the sheet out so if it is not in the center it will not crop correctly.

If you are printing using a custom size I would center your image in the center of a A4/Letter sheet and impose again. Leave your crop marks off and in trim size put in the size of what you want to trim to and add the crop marks via the creo.

 

[Miss Marple]

Creo and KM6500

Creo and KM6500

Hi there,

I think what you need to do is import the file into Creo, then impose it. Creo will read the correct file size and then you will see that size in the imposition fields. When you go to the imposition menu, the trim size should be the finished, trimmed size of the job. Then go to spacing and add the crops and bleed. If you have included bleed in the file itself then all should be well.

If you follow these instructions all of your imposition issues should be resolved.

If you are getting jitter, you should place a service call, I believe that there is a fix for the engine for that.

In any case, you should be able to get help from the application specialist from the KM Branch that you deal with.

Best wishes

 

[exify]

There's a lot of patches for the Creo RIP, and at least one that handles "minor" bugs in imposition.

If you check the "About" menu in the IC-304 menu you will see what version and which patches you have installed.

Yesterday the IC-304 version 2.1 was released which could be a good thing to install.

I have the IC-304 2.0 Service Pack 1 + additional imposition patch. I'll see if I can get 2.1.

Ok, step by step process here.

Print your job. Preview the job BEFORE you rip. This will open the job in acrobat. Does your image look in the center of the page? Save the PDF and post it here if you like. Under tools you can measure the distances between your image and the edge of the sheet.

It sounds like your image is not centerd and this will cause the effect you have. The creo crops from the center of the sheet out so if it is not in the center it will not crop correctly.

If you are printing using a custom size I would center your image in the center of a A4/Letter sheet and impose again. Leave your crop marks off and in trim size put in the size of what you want to trim to and add the crop marks via the creo.

Yes, my image is centered in the document. Also, I won't have the problem on 5x7, but if I resize to 4x6 with the same settings, it won't work right.

Hi there,

I think what you need to do is import the file into Creo, then impose it. Creo will read the correct file size and then you will see that size in the imposition fields. When you go to the imposition menu, the trim size should be the finished, trimmed size of the job. Then go to spacing and add the crops and bleed. If you have included bleed in the file itself then all should be well.

If you follow these instructions all of your imposition issues should be resolved.

If you are getting jitter, you should place a service call, I believe that there is a fix for the engine for that.

In any case, you should be able to get help from the application specialist from the KM Branch that you deal with.

Best wishes

Yes, these are the steps I usually do and they lead to the problem. The application specialist was no help and didn't want to stay to figure it out so he left.

The service calls for the jitter have resulted in "that's how it is, can't fix it". Or if they do happen to fix it, it happens again soon after.

The other 2 issues are a little more concerning though.

 

[UberTech]

I have the IC-304 2.0 Service Pack 1 + additional imposition patch. I'll see if I can get 2.1.

Yes, my image is centered in the document. Also, I won't have the problem on 5x7, but if I resize to 4x6 with the same settings, it won't work right.

Yes, these are the steps I usually do and they lead to the problem. The application specialist was no help and didn't want to stay to figure it out so he left.

Why would you use a 5x7 setting on a 6x4, your relise they are not the same aspect ratio?

The service calls for the jitter have resulted in "that's how it is, can't fix it". Or if they do happen to fix it, it happens again soon after.

The other 2 issues are a little more concerning though.

The jitter you talk about sounds like the 2nd transfer pressure is set to low for that paper. This is under process adjust for that tray. If this is not set then I could say wth some certainty your paper is the wrong grain. i.e easier to fold long edge to long edge rather short edge to short edge.

 

[exify]

Why would you use a 5x7 setting on a 6x4, your relise they are not the same aspect ratio?

I'm saying that it doesn't happen on 5x7 files but does on 4x6.

The jitter you talk about sounds like the 2nd transfer pressure is set to low for that paper. This is under process adjust for that tray. If this is not set then I could say wth some certainty your paper is the wrong grain. i.e easier to fold long edge to long edge rather short edge to short edge.

My techs said it wasn't the transfer pressure and that it was something causing the paper to buckle too much and they couldnt adjust it without messing up other stocks. I'll look into the transfer paper.

Any idea about the image centering / cutting off?

 

[Steve_S]

Your centering on the 13x19 (or any size sheet) will need to be adjusted using "Both Sides" adjustment on the machine - it needs to be done for each tray and weight of paper fairly regularly if you want to stay consistent on your image position. If you have never used it before, you might have your tech show you - if he/she knows about it. Your tray adjustment can be off enough that the Creo cannot compensate, which is probably why you are cutting off image.

As for the 4x6, we run that size all the time imposed on both our Creo's and never get cut off. How are you getting the image to the RIP - PDF in hot folder, direct print through driver, import at the Creo, ... ?

 

[Trish]

Too Late

Too Late

I've been having some problems with the Creo and KM 6500.

- When impositioning with the Creo, any size 4x6 or under, has a problem recognizing the bleeds. The Creo will think the bottom bleed is part of the document, and that the top bleed doesn't exist. So my crop marks will be .125 off and finished trim product will hence be off-center by .125 (along with having no bleed on top).

I had a tech in here and he had no clue what I was saying, and didn't understand the problem. He blamed my properly made PDFs (with INDD crop marks), then suggested I change the trim size for a business card from 3.5 x 2 to 3.75 x 2.5. That made my INDD crop marks show instead of the Creo, so he said it was solved... adding a fake gutter so I get less-up is a work-around not a solution.

Calls to service manager are unreturned so I turn to you.

- When printing imposed sheets (imposed on Creo or elsewhere), the image seems to shrink. 4x6 cards will become 3.95x5.95, 8.5x11 will become 8.4 x 10.9. This isn't really a big deal, but it's annoying when I have postcards and I cut 6 inch, 6inch, 6inch, and then the last one ends up being messed up because I didn't realize they became 5.95.

- When printing on 13x19, the image is sometimes off-center... using the Creo to shift the position of the image results in the lead edge of the image being cut off. Even though there's still .375 margin existing. So there will be a blank .375 margin, then the image will start but will be cut off.

This doesn't involve the Creo:

- When printing on 12pt, about 2 inches from the trail edge, I get a jitter, or a .25 area where it seems like the paper got stuck and then started again. The image blurs or registration is off, then it goes back to normal.

This sounds like alot of complaints.... Whoops.

it sounds like you may be living my nighmare.We have the sister printer,Ikon CPP650.It has been nothing but trouble since the day they plugged it in.We are two years into a four year lease and the techs cannot get it to run.Ikon will not take any responsibility.When this printer came off the line there were major issues with the blades on the drum units.They were defective and had to be redesigned in Japan while they continued to sell this printer.We were one of the unlucky ones.

 

[Steve_S]

it sounds like you may be living my nighmare.We have the sister printer,Ikon CPP650.It has been nothing but trouble since the day they plugged it in.We are two years into a four year lease and the techs cannot get it to run.Ikon will not take any responsibility.When this printer came off the line there were major issues with the blades on the drum units.They were defective and had to be redesigned in Japan while they continued to sell this printer.We were one of the unlucky ones.

There is more to it than just the machine - techs are critical as well. I won't relive our history here, but we dismissed Konica, got the same exact machine from Oce (CS650), and it ran well enough that we bought a second (CS665). Ikon in our region is horrible, but all the manufacturers service can be good or bad in any given region. Push them until they can't handle it anymore and decide to leave. Or they may just get you the help you deserve as a paying customer. Either way you win.

 

[Trish]

CPP650 falls short

CPP650 falls short

There were only two Ikon techs trainned to service this model in our area.They also have no idea what they were dealing with.Did I mention there were defective parts in this printer known by Ikon at the time of sale??It took ten month to redesign and ship from Japan.We just got a lemon, if it was a car we would have a leg to stand on.for some reason Ikon has gotten away with FRAUD.

 

[Steve_S]

Sorry to hear that.

 

[UberTech]

I'm saying that it doesn't happen on 5x7 files but does on 4x6.

The aspect ratio is wrong either way!!

My techs said it wasn't the transfer pressure and that it was something causing the paper to buckle too much and they couldnt adjust it without messing up other stocks. I'll look into the transfer paper.

This screams wrong grain

Any idea about the image centering / cutting off?

This is confusing. You say you have a .375 margin (whats that in mm?) from the lead edge? So the margin on the lead edge (first edge out) is larger than that on the trail edge and you are trying to move the image further to the lead edge? But when you do the image moves but the margin stays the same?

If this is the case then you need to adjust the image postion on the engine tray setting as this dictates the engine margin. You could even print over the edge but you wouldn't as the image would repeat on the back of the sheet.

 

[exify]

The aspect ratio is wrong either way!!

I'm not talking about the same file... i'm comparing sizes and saying it happens to one and not the other.

This is confusing. You say you have a .375 margin (whats that in mm?) from the lead edge? So the margin on the lead edge (first edge out) is larger than that on the trail edge and you are trying to move the image further to the lead edge? But when you do the image moves but the margin stays the same?

Yes.

If this is the case then you need to adjust the image postion on the engine tray setting as this dictates the engine margin. You could even print over the edge but you wouldn't as the image would repeat on the back of the sheet.

Can I change the margin by weight or just by tray? I use tray 5 for multiple coated stocks and it only happens on heavy cover stock.

 

[UberTech]

Can I change the margin by weight or just by tray? I use tray 5 for multiple coated stocks and it only happens on heavy cover stock.

You can change it by stock. So set your adjustment touch on register and save it in the paper catalog with a name that means something to you. You can select this stock from the creo, but you will have to set it on the engine. FYI the lead edge margin should not move regardless of stock.

 

[gig0]

I had a tech in here and he had no clue what I was saying, and didn't understand the problem. He blamed my properly made PDFs (with INDD crop marks), then suggested I change the trim size for a business card from 3.5 x 2 to 3.75 x 2.5. That made my INDD crop marks show instead of the Creo, so he said it was solved... adding a fake gutter so I get less-up is a work-around not a solution.

I know theres an old InDesign bug that shifts copy up on the media size if the document is under 4.5" width and you have 'page information' selected under marks and bleeds. Sounds like this is happening to you. We turn off page info for anything under 5".

 

[exify]

You can change it by stock. So set your adjustment touch on register and save it in the paper catalog with a name that means something to you. You can select this stock from the creo, but you will have to set it on the engine. FYI the lead edge margin should not move regardless of stock.

Wait... you said I can change it by stock then said it shouldn't move regardless of stock. I'm confused.

 

[exify]

I know theres an old InDesign bug that shifts copy up on the media size if the document is under 4.5" width and you have 'page information' selected under marks and bleeds. Sounds like this is happening to you. We turn off page info for anything under 5".

That must be it, I'll try it out. Thanks.

 

[UberTech]

Wait... you said I can change it by stock then said it shouldn't move regardless of stock. I'm confused.

You can set the registration by stock. But it should not move i.e the machine does not seem to be performing correctly if the lead edge reg moves depending on stock.