Die Cutting 1000 sheets/day 400 gsm

Shredder

Well-known member
We print 400gsm 13x19 sheets 6 up and need to cut/trim sheets, punch 6 hang holes. Are there any automated machines that can combine all steps or should I order a custom cutting die? We only have 2 designs.
 

AP90

Well-known member
We print 400gsm 13x19 sheets 6 up and need to cut/trim sheets, punch 6 hang holes. Are there any automated machines that can combine all steps or should I order a custom cutting die? We only have 2 designs.
What size holes? Are you doing 6 holes in each individual piece, or 1 hole in each?

If it’s one hole in each and same spot, guillotine cutter and then a stack paper drill. That’d be your easiest way and least expensive way.

Automating for that low of an amount is gonna cost you big upfront money.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
One hole each individual piece, its a delta hang hole so package can be placed on peg hooks. Where to buy a stack paper drill with proper die for hang hole? How many sheets can a stack paper drill cut through at one time?

Thanks for help!
 

AP90

Well-known member
One hole each individual piece, its a delta hang hole so package can be placed on peg hooks. Where to buy a stack paper drill with proper die for hang hole? How many sheets can a stack paper drill cut through at one time?

Thanks for help!
Well if its a delta hang, that will be a die cutter and not a stack drill. cheapest die cutting machine would be a Heidelberg windmill press converted to die cutting. but takes up space and has a learning curve to run. Not easy

The other option would be a digital finishing system from say Standard or Duplo. BIG money
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
What quantities are you printing?
Does it absolutely have to be a delta hang, or would a larger (say 10mm) circular hole suffice? If the latter serves the same purpose and is acceptable, you will save lots of money.
Alternatively, if you're producing serious quantities, to justify paying setup, build a relationship with your local finishing house.
 

Stickman42

Well-known member
Maybe I'm fortunate - I use a local shop that has multiple small Kluge's, and they would die cut 1000 pieces as described for under $50 (die is extra, but it's not an expensive one).
 

SoggyWinter

Well-known member
Boggs Equipment is listing a Rollem rotary die cutter used. I'd guess that it will sell for $40,000. New is over 100k. Dies are $300 to $500

Duplo has a DB400 cutting table with an MSRP of $20,000

AP90's suggestion is probably the most cost effective. A used paper drill off of eBay or one of the wirebids auctions could be under $1000. You could cut a block of wood to make an angle jig for the delta cuts with your guillotine.
 

davarino

Well-known member
Maybe I'm fortunate - I use a local shop that has multiple small Kluge's, and they would die cut 1000 pieces as described for under $50 (die is extra, but it's not an expensive one).
Definitely a job for a handfed platen press or a Kluge. You can pick them up cheap, the dies are inexpensive, and 1,000 sheets thru, even 19x13, would be less than an hour, once you have it all set up.

Perfect beginner's press in a printshop, even in this day and age. It will teach you who has the stuff to stick around in your shop.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
One of these?
Kluge?

Currently my sheets are 12x18, I wanted to move to 13x19 to save on PPC. This machine does look super ugly for such a simple basic operation?
 

AP90

Well-known member
One of these?
Kluge?

Currently my sheets are 12x18, I wanted to move to 13x19 to save on PPC. This machine does look super ugly for such a simple basic operation?
You can still print 13x19 and then cut to an appropriate size for the Kluge to run.
Other than the kluge, your looking at $20k min Like mentioned above. Die cutting isn’t necessarily a simple operation. To do it well, it’s not simple. It’d be like saying why have a huge polar Mohr cutter when you could use a manual stack cutter. Sure, you could get there, the the polar will get you there quicker.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
Yes, Im sticking to guillotine cutters. We have been using this method currently but for some reason my employees use the tabletop one over the old challenge hydraulic one I have.
Between a stack cutter and a rotary trimmer which one will be better suited for application of cutting packaging cards out of 18pt stock (400 gsm) faster and better? I prefer to stack/gang sheets so it takes less time to cut 1000 sheets/day. Doesn't have to be a huge number but more the better. We are doing precision cuts and not sure if stack cutter can be super precise?
 
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AP90

Well-known member
Neither of what you linked is what I would consider "precise". Theres always going to be a tolerance. But I know on our Challenge 305 and Challenge 20 we can split the cut marks. Doesn't get much more precise than that. Comes down more to your printer being able to print tight tolerances. The higher end the printer, the tighter the tolerances (generally speaking).

They're probably using the table top over the challenge because of the operation of it. Look around on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist for a more automated cutter. Even our challenge 20 is simple. Manual backguage with electronic display and push button clamp and knife.

But what exactly are your goals for this? You went from die cutting to standard cutting. Im partial to guillotine cutters. I know some people use Duplo SCC's to do their cutting, but unless your doing a ton of business cards I feel a guillotine is just as easy. Its just less automated.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
What do you mean more automated cutter?

Originally I was thinking about a die cutter like this:

It looks automated but not sure it can handle 400 gsm. Also, doesn't look industrial enough. I don't mind refilling 50-100 sheets every 30 mins.

Now I am thinking about guillotine cutter but want to cut 15-20+ sheets at a time to get fast throughput (more even better). We have a number of small table top guillotines but they can only cut 1 sheet at a time.
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
What do you mean more automated cutter?

Originally I was thinking about a die cutter like this:

It looks automated but not sure it can handle 400 gsm. Also, doesn't look industrial enough. I don't mind refilling 50-100 sheets every 30 mins.

Now I am thinking about guillotine cutter but want to cut 15-20+ sheets at a time to get fast throughput (more even better). We have a number of small table top guillotines but they can only cut 1 sheet at a time.
We looked at a similar ("F Mark") Graphtec cutter earlier this year, before opting for a flatbed (Vivid Veloblade).
From the research we did, the Graphtec seemed to be an OK budget tool for small volumes of kiss cutting work, but less than perfect for die cutting jobs, as the y-axis movement is in the stock as opposed to the head. On a flatbed, a vacuum holds the stock firmly in place for die cutting, whereas I understand on that unit you're looking at, the die cut part remains attached to the sheet and you ping it to weed.

All that aside, once again I'm sorry to be blunt and say you're looking at completely the wrong tool for the job. You are talking of die cutting 1,000 sheets of 400GSM stock per day and are happy to refill a machine with 50-100 sheets every 30 minutes. That's just absurd. Do the math - even taking your best case scenario of loading 100 sheets every 30 minutes, and not allowing for any downtime, you're going to spend 5 hours every day loading and weeding. In reality that won't ever happen.

I suggest you back up a few steps and completely forget about die cutting. You mention you only have two sorts, so we're not talking variable data. You've also mentioned on here more than once that you have heaps of free warehouse space. Unless you've not given us the full picture, it is insane to contemplate digitally printing and die cutting these volumes inhouse.

Sub it out to litho and buy 3 months finished stock at a time. You're talking 20k sheets per month. Not even allowing for time in the equation, if you can produce in-house for anywhere close to what you can buy it litho and have it die cut at a trade finishing house, then you need to sit down and have serious discussions with your trade contacts. Hopefully by now you've taken the advice received on here about managing packaging changes with your customers, so you don't take the cost of redundant packaging. Agree the 3 months stockholding with your customer and do what I've said above. Then you'll have lots of spare time to devote to more lucrative activities.
 
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Shredder

Well-known member
I don't mind the blunt advice actually I prefer it. I am not looking at a vinyl die cutter anymore. The idea passed through my mind about refilling but I agree its alot of unnecessary work.

We have 2 sizes of cards but over 100 different card artwork (technically more sizes but I am focused on 2 currently). No matter what I do need to have some in house work for the small runs. Larger runs I have been doing at litho for last 30+ years. Pricing for heat seal blister cards is more than normal printing as it has a special SPS glue coating that takes over a week to cure and very few people know how to do it. Lead times are in months not weeks (esp during holiday season, 3M has screwed us over a few times). We used to buy 3 months of stock a time, sometimes even more. I am sitting on 20+ pallets of dead printed materials that I am recycling. Most likely for orders over 25k I will sub it out, but for orders under 10-20k I will do it in house. My only issue is finding a machine that can automate the cutting. I'd be happy to buy and learn how to a Kluge if it can properly automate the cutting.
 

tngcas

Well-known member
We looked at a similar ("F Mark") Graphtec cutter earlier this year, before opting for a flatbed (Vivid Veloblade).
Would you mind sharing about where you landed in terms of price for the Veloblade and then how does it do for speed? It looks like it only does one sheet at a time.
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
Would you mind sharing about where you landed in terms of price for the Veloblade and then how does it do for speed? It looks like it only does one sheet at a time.
We bought direct from Vivid as an existing Matrix/Omniflow customer and were once again well looked after by Duncan Cross, in securing a price very advantageous to the Duplo alternative (the same physical machine, different badge).

The Veloblade indeed does only cut one sheet at a time - we bought it predominantly to kiss cut SRA3 laser film for stickers, decals, etc. We also use it for short run simple die-cutting. Of course, it is not designed to be a replacement for a platen based die cutter to churn out thousands of pieces.

The only criticism to date is the CAD software that runs it is "very Chinese" and does quite urgently need developing for the European market. This I understand Duplo have done and feature heavy on this point. The image on the PC monitor is upside down to what you're looking at on the table and the camera joystick keys on the software are 90 or 180 degrees out to those on the table. Also some of the syntax is non-intuitive, such as prompting "Saved? Y/N" when you'd expect "Save? Y/N" which if working quickly can result in you overwriting a file. Vivid are always evolving their products and I would be very surprised if they don't address these issues soon and re-badge the software too (like Duplo have done).
 

AP90

Well-known member
Shredder,

I think it would help if you would restart this and tell us what exactly it is your trying to accomplish. I think a lot of us (or me at least) are confused as to what it is you are wanting to produce and how you currently produce it. Here would be a good starting point of things to mention in an initial post for us to better help you.

1. What is the product that you currently produce (size, die cut, paper, digital or offset, etc)?
2. How is it currently produced?
3. What are the problems with how it is currently produced?
4. What equipment do you currently have?
5. Why are you wanting to bring this in house instead of outsourcing?
6. What is your budget for equipment to bring it in house?

This should hopefully give you and us a good starting point on the information we need to better help you find out what you are wanting to do.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
See below:

Shredder,

I think it would help if you would restart this and tell us what exactly it is your trying to accomplish. I think a lot of us (or me at least) are confused as to what it is you are wanting to produce and how you currently produce it. Here would be a good starting point of things to mention in an initial post for us to better help you.

1. What is the product that you currently produce (size, die cut, paper, digital or offset, etc)? 3x5", 4x6" Heat Seal Blister Cards digital 400gsm
2. How is it currently produced? Litho outsourced / Oki C911dn in house
3. What are the problems with how it is currently produced? Oki C911dn can not print large quantities efficiently currently 360gsm
4. What equipment do you currently have? Minolta C6000, Minolta C6100 with Fiery, Oki C911dn, Challenge HA?? 1970s guillotine cutter with new blade
5. Why are you wanting to bring this in house instead of outsourcing? Faster turn around, cheaper when quantities are less than 25k than offset otherwise equal depending on labor to cut, many products don't need 25k of each card, on demand variable printing
6. What is your budget for equipment to bring it in house? Equipment has been purchased other than cutting equipment, usually buy machines from ebay

This should hopefully give you and us a good starting point on the information we need to better help you find out what you are wanting to do.
 

Stickman42

Well-known member
I'm with AP90. I'd like to contribute more to answer your questions Shredder, based on the experience I have. But honestly, I have a hard time understanding if you are looking for the least expensive answer, the best answer, etc... Didn't you also say that you are not a print provider? :unsure:
 

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