Die Cutting 1000 sheets/day 400 gsm

Shredder

Well-known member
Usually least expensive answer but want to know about best answer as well. I usually buy machines on ebay when a company is going out of business so sometimes I get good deals. I am an electronics manufacturer but print our own packaging.
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
@Shredder I fear you may be bypassing the least expensive and the best solutions you talk of, simply by being blinded by these eBay deals and focusing too narrowly on individual aspects. For example, you picked up what appeared to be a bargain C6100 and were in awe of the heavy stocks it would accept, to produce packaging materials. However as always, the devil is in the detail and it transpired you struggled to find a controller for it and had no support contract, so the machine sat idle for months.

You don’t appear to placing sufficient value to your time, this is essential when deciding whether to do a job in-house or sub out. Also, you can’t do everything, so decide what is core business and be excellent at it. Then look at the low hanging fruit, easy opportunities to enhance one or more of margin, productivity and customer service. Look at what your competitors are doing, if very few or none of them produce their own packaging, there is a reason for this.

You have mentioned you were absorbing the costs of excess redundant packaging and currently have 20 pallets of it. This has to be your urgent priority to fix - this one aspect alone is haemorrhaging more cash than you’ll ever save by buying cheap printing equipment on eBay. It’s probably also the hardest bullet to bite, particularly if you’ve allowed customers to get away with it for years.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
@Shredder I fear you may be bypassing the least expensive and the best solutions you talk of, simply by being blinded by these eBay deals and focusing too narrowly on individual aspects. For example, you picked up what appeared to be a bargain C6100 and were in awe of the heavy stocks it would accept, to produce packaging materials. However as always, the devil is in the detail and it transpired you struggled to find a controller for it and had no support contract, so the machine sat idle for months.

You don’t appear to placing sufficient value to your time, this is essential when deciding whether to do a job in-house or sub out. Also, you can’t do everything, so decide what is core business and be excellent at it. Then look at the low hanging fruit, easy opportunities to enhance one or more of margin, productivity and customer service. Look at what your competitors are doing, if very few or none of them produce their own packaging, there is a reason for this.

You have mentioned you were absorbing the costs of excess redundant packaging and currently have 20 pallets of it. This has to be your urgent priority to fix - this one aspect alone is haemorrhaging more cash than you’ll ever save by buying cheap printing equipment on eBay. It’s probably also the hardest bullet to bite, particularly if you’ve allowed customers to get away with it for years.

Due to covid, I waited to buy a controller, since my need increased recently I went ahead and was buying new $8k controller from dealer but last second came across brand new fiery for $4k and bought it. I still feel I paid too much for it but now I need it. Tomorrow rep is coming to put it on PPC contract which I'm still wary of.

My business is much different than printing business. I'm selling products not packaging. My customers are large retailers who don't care for printing costs usually. Branding/rebranding is normal business cycle every year multiply that by 10 largest retailers and you have lots of scrap. Its a cost of doing business with them.

FYI we have always been ahead of the competition by doing things ourselves and have been recognized in the industry for being ahead of the competition in packaging. They have been made to follow us a number of times. We have even invented packaging trays that made restocking retail shelves less labor/cost and our competitors were forced to follow. We are the trend setters and trail blazers especially when it comes to our niche.

I'm not looking necessarily for cheapest solution but my budget is $20k or less. I called duplo and their offerings were $80k. Not interested in spending 6 figures. I would have preferred an automatic machine (most likely rotary die cutter) but planning on doing this on guillotine cutter manually currently. Just trying to find cheapest accurate guillotine cutter capable of cutting 25+ 400 gsm sheets at once. We prefer tabletop over press.
 
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AP90

Well-known member
Due to covid, I waited to buy a controller, since my need increased recently I went ahead and was buying new $8k controller from dealer but last second came across brand new fiery for $4k and bought it. I still feel I paid too much for it but now I need it. Tomorrow rep is coming to put it on PPC contract which I'm still wary of.

My business is much different than printing business. I'm selling products not packaging. My customers are large retailers who don't care for printing costs usually. Branding/rebranding is normal business cycle every year multiply that by 10 largest retailers and you have lots of scrap. Its a cost of doing business with them.

FYI we have always been ahead of the competition by doing things ourselves and have been recognized in the industry for being ahead of the competition in packaging. They have been made to follow us a number of times. We have even invented packaging trays that made restocking retail shelves less labor/cost and our competitors were forced to follow. We are the trend setters and trail blazers especially when it comes to our niche.

I'm not looking necessarily for cheapest solution but my budget is $20k or less. I called duplo and their offerings were $80k. Not interested in spending 6 figures. I would have preferred an automatic machine (most likely rotary die cutter) but planning on doing this on guillotine cutter manually currently. Just trying to find cheapest accurate guillotine cutter capable of cutting 25+ 400 gsm sheets at once. We prefer tabletop over press.
Every time you post, it seems to confuse me more and more. Now your saying your a leading innovator, trend setters and Trail Blazers in the packaging market? I don't want to be rude, but someone who is considered those things isn't worried about the cheapest way to produce something, and so much so that they are looking to buy a used RISO to produce it. Look at K-1 packaging. They are innovators and leaders in packaging. They just spend $3+ million on a new Landa Press. And im sure their automated finishing systems would make the 100k duplos look like tinker toys.

Like I've said before, what you are saying doesn't match up with what you are wanting. You can't be a leading innovator in packaging and want to buy a $200 manual table top cutter to produce your work on. Even the simplest of things like leasing a decent digital press and doing a ppc contract you balk at and don't want to do. You talk about wanting to be automated and save money, yet when we tell you to produce your perfect bound books offline to save you A TON OF MONEY, you think you can do it better than industry professionals have been for years. I get it, we all want to be the one to find a new way of doing things that saves money. Hell, ive done it, and found it doesn't work like that in printing. Look at it from our perspective, nothing makes sense about what you're saying to us.
 

Shredder

Well-known member
I NEVER SAID PACKAGING MARKET. I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID I'M AN ELECTRONICS MANUFACTURER AND YES WE HAVE BEEN RECOGNIZED FOR PACKAGING BEING AHEAD OF THE COMPETITION BY MAJOR RETAILERS ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS. Previously our heat seal cards were outsourced to Lithos but our presentation is not limited to the quality of printing, there is much more than goes on in packaging: design, presentation, graphics, touch/feel, marketing text, etc.

Again you guys are extremely confused because my business is not your business. The reason I came on this board was to find best solution for cutting paper repeatedly. I have googled and researched what I can and willing to spend $20k on an automated solution. For a guillotine solution I am going to look for something much cheaper, and my staff prefer table top units over hydraulic presses. I am interested in purchasing the best table top guillotine cutter that can cut most pages with ease (budget $1500). Currently my table top guillotine cutters are designed for 3-5 pages max.

Perfect binding books is a whole different thread that you are confusing with this (my non for profit org) and yes, my minolta solution perfect binding solution cost me more than offline in the past. One of the reason I am weary of PPC contracts is I write checks for $2000+ monthly to fix paper jams. Yes, in 1-2 cases we needed something more but not worth $25k+ I have spent on my PPC contract, more than double of what I paid for my C6000. Its easy to look back but it would have been much cheaper for me to hire them at $150/hr to fix my machine and buy toner from ebay/aftermarket suppliers. If I am manual perfect binding there is very little that can go wrong with printer and better off having them visit as needed.

I have found a term for people who can't afford to buy equipment. Its called OPM = Other People's Money. Its similar to the drug opium because someone else is footing the bill. But if you are writing checks from your pocket, taking money from your bank account you talk much different. Since I am not in the printing business and not running machines 24/7 my interest in spending millions of dollars on printing equipment is not there. I'd rather spend it on electronics manufacturing equipment or robots/cobots to replace manual labor.
 

PricelineNegotiator

Well-known member
I'd rather spend it on electronics manufacturing equipment or robots/cobots to replace manual labor.

Shredder, I think you will save a lot of time and money if you simply go for that "robotic" Duplo. You already employ the benefits on automation, why not attempt to do the same in your printing/packaging department?

Also, Shredder we all enjoy your enthusiasm and questions. We are all industry experts and our opinions are more or less the correct way of looking at things. Equipment has a purchase cost, that is correct, but it also has a cost to run, for both consumables and labor, and mental energy. The last two are hard to define, but if you are able to make your employees more productive with a bit more an up front cost, how does that help you in the end?
 
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AP90

Well-known member
I NEVER SAID PACKAGING MARKET. I HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID I'M AN ELECTRONICS MANUFACTURER AND YES WE HAVE BEEN RECOGNIZED FOR PACKAGING BEING AHEAD OF THE COMPETITION BY MAJOR RETAILERS ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS. Previously our heat seal cards were outsourced to Lithos but our presentation is not limited to the quality of printing, there is much more than goes on in packaging: design, presentation, graphics, touch/feel, marketing text, etc.

Again you guys are extremely confused because my business is not your business. The reason I came on this board was to find best solution for cutting paper repeatedly. I have googled and researched what I can and willing to spend $20k on an automated solution. For a guillotine solution I am going to look for something much cheaper, and my staff prefer table top units over hydraulic presses. I am interested in purchasing the best table top guillotine cutter that can cut most pages with ease (budget $1500). Currently my table top guillotine cutters are designed for 3-5 pages max.

Perfect binding books is a whole different thread that you are confusing with this (my non for profit org) and yes, my minolta solution perfect binding solution cost me more than offline in the past. One of the reason I am weary of PPC contracts is I write checks for $2000+ monthly to fix paper jams. Yes, in 1-2 cases we needed something more but not worth $25k+ I have spent on my PPC contract, more than double of what I paid for my C6000. Its easy to look back but it would have been much cheaper for me to hire them at $150/hr to fix my machine and buy toner from ebay/aftermarket suppliers. If I am manual perfect binding there is very little that can go wrong with printer and better off having them visit as needed.

I have found a term for people who can't afford to buy equipment. Its called OPM = Other People's Money. Its similar to the drug opium because someone else is footing the bill. But if you are writing checks from your pocket, taking money from your bank account you talk much different. Since I am not in the printing business and not running machines 24/7 my interest in spending millions of dollars on printing equipment is not there. I'd rather spend it on electronics manufacturing equipment or robots/cobots to replace manual labor.
These are your direct words. "FYI we have always been ahead of the competition by doing things ourselves and have been recognized in the industry for being ahead of the competition in packaging." But thats besides the point. I don't want to get into a he said she said argument.

If you want answers, here's your answers. To cut 25 sheets at a time. Cheapest way to do it, probably a Dahle Tabletop. Best and correct way: A hydraulic guillotine cutter.

Die cutting: Cheapest way is to make your own die and set it over each piece and use a razor blade to cut it. Best way to do it is to purchase a good quality rotary die cutter like the Duplo you mentioned. Most people outsource to a local bindery. Your in Chicago. Thats a no brainer. Bindery houses will get it done quickly and at a low cost for you.

You said it perfectly with these words. "Since I am not in the printing business and not running machines 24/7 my interest in spending millions of dollars on printing equipment is not there. I'd rather spend it on electronics manufacturing equipment or robots/cobots to replace manual labor." We are printers and were telling you what works and doesn't work. But it doesn't seem like your even understanding what were trying to tell you. Your time and money would be much better spent on your electronics. Go find a trade printer who will produce what you need. They are out there, you just haven't found them. I guarantee it. You don't have to sit on 25 pallets of packaging to throw away. A trade printer will print up what you need offset and supplement extra orders digitally and no one would know except you. Your overages should be minimum. Negotiate with the places that you need X amount of time for new designs to get them printed up. If you save them money by not building in this waste they'll listen.
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
Since I am not in the printing business and not running machines 24/7 my interest in spending millions of dollars on printing equipment is not there. I'd rather spend it on electronics manufacturing equipment or robots/cobots to replace manual labor.
... but it's OK to use manual labour to operate a rotary trimmer to cut blister cards? Sorry, but I'm also becoming more and more confused as to what you want to achieve.

If you were in the UK, I would offer to spend one or two days per month consulting for you. I'm sure others on here would too... having not even seen your business, I could save you an absolute fortune, based on what you've said on this forum alone. I'm sure many others on here could likewise, perhaps someone local to you could offer similar? As a pioneering electronics business serving the top ten retailers in your country, you must be doing a lot right. However from what you've told us, your support functions could be so much more productive. Pay the right individual say $50k for two days per month for a year... listen, learn and implement... and you'll make that ten times over in year two.

Do you have a website? If so, please post a link to it.
 

AP90

Well-known member
... but it's OK to use manual labour to operate a rotary trimmer to cut blister cards? Sorry, but I'm also becoming more and more confused as to what you want to achieve.

If you were in the UK, I would offer to spend one or two days per month consulting for you. I'm sure others on here would too... having not even seen your business, I could save you an absolute fortune, based on what you've said on this forum alone. I'm sure many others on here could likewise, perhaps someone local to you could offer similar? As a pioneering electronics business serving the top ten retailers in your country, you must be doing a lot right. However from what you've told us, your support functions could be so much more productive. Pay the right individual say $50k for two days per month for a year... listen, learn and implement... and you'll make that ten times over in year two.

Do you have a website? If so, please post a link to it.
This is great advice. Im sure there's tons of consultants out there that could help. Id love to help out if I just understood what you are wanting. But like we said, were just all confused.
 

Craig

Well-known member
My favorite is his employees prefer a table top cutter over a hydraulic! They obviously never ran a programmable cutter😂 Please boss, can I sit here for 2 hours and cut these 500 sheets? I'd hate to be able to do that in 5 minutes and actually have each one the same size!!!
 

Ynot_UK

Well-known member
@Shredder did you ever post that link to your website? ...so we can understand your business better and hopefully offer you more tailored advice?
 
We print 400gsm 13x19 sheets 6 up and need to cut/trim sheets, punch 6 hang holes. Are there any automated machines that can combine all steps or should I order a custom cutting die? We only have 2 designs.
Hello. Have a look at this one
It does 3000 sheets/hour. Some restrictions apply for the punch hole but you can work it around. Could give you more information if I had an example of the art work. Thank you.
 

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