Digital Decision

[tsprinter]

I am in the process of evaluating various light production digital presses and have narrowed the competition to the Xerox 700, Xerox 550/560, the Ricoh c720/c900 and the Canon 9075 pro. I wanted to evaluate KM but they have no presence in our southeastern location.

We are currently a traditional offset printer that outsources our full color work but now believe we can affordably transition to doing this in-house and would like some advice on both equipment and staff training on prepress differences and workflow.

We anticipate at least 30,000 clicks/month with our current volumes and would expect that to grow as we target more full color work and understand what we can shift from our offset to digital. I would anticipate 50,000 within 18 months. Stock will primarily be 80# uncoated/coated text, 80# uncoated/coated cover, and 100# uncoated/coated cover. We will also be shifting some of our short run one and two color jobs to this machine where it makes sense from a cost standpoint.

Main concerns are:
1. Color quality and consistency - all the machines above have run our test files and seem to have done well. (Xerox 700 ran better on linens and laids but seemed to have a tough time with some flesh tones in some pageant program covers that we run. These were run by the sales guy, who has no real training on the unit so it could have been just user error.)

2. Reliability and uptime - obviously it costs money to not be able to run jobs, not to mention I am OCD about delivering on what I promise, when I promise it.

3. Registration consistency - we will be doing fairly large number of 4/4 business cards, brochures and newsletter and this will be important.

4. Ability to grow with my business. If I can grow this to 60,000 - 75,000 per month, can the machine keep up?

4. Pricing is important but takes a back seat to the issues listed above as a couple of hundred dollars per month on a lease is not a make or break deal.

Thanks for your input and assistance!

 

[MagicBox]

Based on your longterm need expectations the 700 is definitely the choice of the Xerox units. Thats based on media type and volume. You may also want to look into a Xerox 5000 - I understand this unit may be heavily discounted for year end.

 

[Jackie]

I have to put my 2 cents in on the Canon 9065 (slightly slower version of the 9075). So far I've been disappointed by the colour consistency and I've had several other issues with colour registration and colour shift within runs. Interface is overly complicated for no reason at all. Performance is also unimpressive on uncoated stocks, these are proper digital papers that we have used.

I used to be a big fan of Canon machines but this one misses the mark.

Good Luck

 

[msaeger]

Did you get any info about the update for the c720/c900 the c901 ? LINK

I get no complaints about registration on the c900/c720.

100K a month on either should be no problem the only difference between the c720 and c900 is the pages per minute and some of the finishing options are not available on the c720.

When looking at pages per month keep in mind the ratings are always for letter size and I would guess you won't run anything smaller than 11x17 so when they say it can do 50K a month if you run 50K 11x17 that's really 100K as far as maintenance goes. Billing will be a single click for whatever size but for instance the c900 drums are rated for 800K that's 800K letter size.

See if you can run some real jobs on the machines or get referrals and go see them run some real jobs.

 

[tsprinter]

Thank you for your input. The information on the rated pages per month was new information to me - I had assumed (my father always warned me about that!) that the pages per month we clicks, regardless of size.

I have read and heard of a significant amount of color consistency issues with the c720/c900. Can you provide any further information about that? I have a warm, fuzzy about the print quality and consistency of the Xerox 700 but am not quite there on the Ricoh.

As far as the Canon c9075 pro, I have not heard any positive feedback at all. Unless, I can get some positive feedback, I may have to eliminate it from consideration.

Thanks and I appreciate any additional feedback you guys can provide.

 

[MagicBox]

I'm sure you're having some type of professional color calibration tools included in all these models. It is essential that you have something like an es1000 spectrophotometer (in the case of a fiery) included with your device. Most reps likely have no idea how to use one with a device property but if your only issue with the 700 is the flesh tones proper calibration will correct this easily. Also, if you like Xerox in the end make sure you understand which channel of Xerox you're dealing with. Direct Corporate Reps and Agent Reps offer basically the same thing, reps from a subsidiary are more like dealers who sell Xerox equipment with their own independent service, financing, and guarantee's.

 

[tsprinter]

Thanks MagicBox. I am currently dealing with an independent rep company but they have brought in the Xerox reps as part of the deal. What is your opinion of the pros and cons dealing with a rep vs. Xerox direct? I have a good relationship with the local rep but have not really thought through issue this since I know the rep.

Also, if I understand what you are saying, the spectrophotometer is a separate module and is not bundled into the Fiery. Is that correct?

 

[Steve_S]

Thanks MagicBox. I am currently dealing with an independent rep company but they have brought in the Xerox reps as part of the deal. What is your opinion of the pros and cons dealing with a rep vs. Xerox direct? I have a good relationship with the local rep but have not really thought through issue this since I know the rep.

Also, if I understand what you are saying, the spectrophotometer is a separate module and is not bundled into the Fiery. Is that correct?

The Xerox rep comes with Xerox service, which will [usually, not always] be more costly BUT much more reliable than independent service. If you rely on accurate color, I would not do it any other way.

And the densitometer/software is usually in a packaged bundle at a certain level of Fiery products, i.e. "Graphic Arts Pro Package" or some such set. It is not something that comes with every Fiery as a lot of people just want 'pleasing color' and run with it.

 

[msaeger]

Thank you for your input. The information on the rated pages per month was new information to me - I had assumed (my father always warned me about that!) that the pages per month we clicks, regardless of size.

Don't forget I am talking about service not billing. As far as billing goes it's one click for each side no matter what the page size it is.

I have read and heard of a significant amount of color consistency issues with the c720/c900. Can you provide any further information about that? I have a warm, fuzzy about the print quality and consistency of the Xerox 700 but am not quite there on the Ricoh.

Do you mean like the color changing during a run or between runs ? I haven't had complaints about that. The most common thing I get aside from operator errors is streaks from the fuser. I just rebuild the fuser to fix that. All of my machines have a spare fuser and what Ricoh calls TCRUs. TCRUs are all the maintenance items in the machine like photo conductor units, corona units, etc. So the way it works is I go out swap the units which is easy (swapping the fuser out takes about a minute) then I rebuild the spare units and have them ready for the next time. The customer can swap out the units if they want but I don't have any that do it.

All the c900/c720s that Ricoh direct sells will come with the TCRU kit and a ES1000 spectrometer. If you get one from a dealer I recommend getting the TCRU kit and you have to get a spectrometer if you don't have one already. If you don't have a spectrometer you can't do calibrations and color matching.

Yesterday I went to one with a line caused by the image transfer belt. It was fixed by swapping out the ITB cleaning unit and I replaced the ITB because that was due as well.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I can speak on the Cannon option...image quality/registration of these are very good. Very good.
However the downtime is unacceptable in my opinion.
Ours is down 2-3 days a month on average and we only run about 55,000 per month through it.

We are in the process of purchasing the Ricoh 901.

 

[premiumprinters]

I have a Ricoh Pro C900s for sale. Would fit your needs perfectly. 1 is a Print/Copy/Scan version with only 53,000 impressions (showroom model). Comes with Stapler Finisher, Booklet Finisher, Large Capacity Tray and Fiery for your color needs. 1200 x 1200 dpi extremely good graphics. Asking $55K.

[email protected]

 

[premiumprinters]

An advantage of the Ricoh C900 you may want to consider is that it runs at full rated speed--90ppm even in the heavier stocks you mentioned. Other machines slow to a crawl and a 90ppm machine becomes 50 or 30ppm when you raise the thickness. This should help you finish/deliver jobs faster.
Also, machine should have no problem with higher volumes you are anticipating. I used to work for Ricoh and we had several customers in the 100k+ range monthly using this machine without issues.

 

[Studiopress]

Ricoh C720s vs Xerox 550

Ricoh C720s vs Xerox 550

We, too are a commercial offset printer expanding into digital production. I have narrowed it down to a Xerox 550 and a Ricoh C720s. The Ricoh unit I am being offered is a demo (less than 20,000 clicks) is only $4500 more and is 20% faster at 72ppm, plus has 2x the paper capacity. I think I am being offered a fantastic price on it compared to the street price of $60,000 and up.

The Xerox is brand new. Basically same configuration for both, Fiery, Spectrophotometer, hi-capcity feeders, except the Ricoh includes the booklet finisher, the Xerox has the Advance Finisher, would be $1,000 more w/bookletmaker option. Xerox is also throwing in the Darwin VP to sweeten the deal.

Ricoh will lock in .04 color & .0079 B&W for 36 mos.
Xerox maintenance is .049 clr & .009 B&W with max yrly increase not to exceed 8% for 5 yrs. Ricoh's sounds like a better deal, right?

I am a current IKON customer, so I am acquainted with & have been satisfied with their service performance on my current office copier. Xerox service would be thru the same authorized dealer that I would be buying from and an unknown for me, although several references have given them good reports, although their shops are within the city-metro surrounding area 1 -2hrs travel time avg, while we are nearly 3 hrs away. They claim they have a couple of technicians within 45 min of us.

Both are offering me 4 wks trial, instead of 2.

I'm also wondering if $ wise (initial price), and ppm wise, if I shouldn't be actually be comparing the Xerox 700 with the Ricoh instead. The salesman is not even suggesting that model.

I've read some bad reviews on the Ricoh machine, and a few on the Xerox, so that makes my decision even harder! My main objective is to have the consistant color output, sheet handling on heavy and coated stocks, with the least amount of down time.

My deliema: should I go for the faster, but lower resolution (1200x1200) of the Ricoh for 20% more money on the purchase price and known service reputation?
Is the Xerox 550 just as good, although a bit slower at 55ppm? and for less money?

Any response would be extremely helpful. Thanks in advance!

 

[mtaylor]

We, too are a commercial offset printer expanding into digital production. I have narrowed it down to a Xerox 550 and a Ricoh C720s. The Ricoh unit I am being offered is a demo (less than 20,000 clicks) is only $4500 more and is 20% faster at 72ppm, plus has 2x the paper capacity. I think I am being offered a fantastic price on it compared to the street price of $60,000 and up.

The Xerox is brand new. Basically same configuration for both, Fiery, Spectrophotometer, hi-capcity feeders, except the Ricoh includes the booklet finisher, the Xerox has the Advance Finisher, would be $1,000 more w/bookletmaker option. Xerox is also throwing in the Darwin VP to sweeten the deal.

Ricoh will lock in .04 color & .0079 B&W for 36 mos.
Xerox maintenance is .049 clr & .009 B&W with max yrly increase not to exceed 8% for 5 yrs. Ricoh's sounds like a better deal, right?

I am a current IKON customer, so I am acquainted with & have been satisfied with their service performance on my current office copier. Xerox service would be thru the same authorized dealer that I would be buying from and an unknown for me, although several references have given them good reports, although their shops are within the city-metro surrounding area 1 -2hrs travel time avg, while we are nearly 3 hrs away. They claim they have a couple of technicians within 45 min of us.

Both are offering me 4 wks trial, instead of 2.

I'm also wondering if $ wise (initial price), and ppm wise, if I shouldn't be actually be comparing the Xerox 700 with the Ricoh instead. The salesman is not even suggesting that model.

I've read some bad reviews on the Ricoh machine, and a few on the Xerox, so that makes my decision even harder! My main objective is to have the consistant color output, sheet handling on heavy and coated stocks, with the least amount of down time.

My deliema: should I go for the faster, but lower resolution (1200x1200) of the Ricoh for 20% more money on the purchase price and known service reputation?
Is the Xerox 550 just as good, although a bit slower at 55ppm? and for less money?

Any response would be extremely helpful. Thanks in advance!

I am in the very same boat as you (Had another thread about this) I'm down to the Ricoh 720 and the Xerox 550 (Originally Xerox had proposed the 7775). Like you, I have been a relatively-happy Ikon customer for about 8 years and don't know a thing about my local Xerox dealer.

Both deals are a lease and I'm also getting a high-speed black at the same time, so I don't know what the unbundled lease numbers would be.

As far as clicks, I told both bidders I wanted my clicks fixed (1 click any size) for the term of the lease and to bid it that way. Xerox gave me .045 color and .005 black and white, while Ikon was .045 color and .008 black and white. I believe Ikon is going to sharpen that black and white number.

I'm going to look at the X700 at the local showroom because they don't have a 550. When the sales rep said the 550 was the 700 only slower, it did not inspire a lot of confidence after reading this board. However the lease for the 550 and and a used 4110 is about $600 less per month than the Ricoh 720 & new 90 ppm B&W machine.

I spoke with a 720 owner who has had it for about 3 months and hasn't had a service call yet, but I have yet to read or hear about any experience with the 550. There is a guy on this forum who is having one installed tomorrow. I'm hoping he'll give us his first impressions.

I would suggest you try and get a better rate on your black and white clicks from Xerox.

 

[Muddy]

Both are good machines. Xerox is a terrible company to partner with. It very quickly becomes about them and not about you. Read some of the xerox threads and you will quickly agree.

 

[tsprinter]

I saw the Ricoh 720 in action yesterday and must say I was impressed. It is definitely more "industrial" looking - it was bigger and was constructed of much more metal components. One thing that did surprise me is that they state the output is 72 pages per minute but that is really 72 images per minute. If you run 2 up (8.5" x 11") on an 11" x 17", that would be considered two images so you would only get 36 sheets per minute out.

The Xerox rep is making an issue out of the fact that Xerox does not use fuser oil but Ricoh does. Is this really an issue or just an opinion? It seems the image quality can be adjusted to make it more or less glossy based on preference so I am not sure it is important. Any opinions on this would be appreciate.

I inquired as to the streaking issues that have been reported and they told me they had two different issues that caused that: 1) the original drum was made from a different metal (they think it was titanium) and if it was scratched, it would cause the streaks. They have developed a new drum as a result of the streaking issues to resolve it. 2) the output rollers can cause some paper streaking if the pressure is too great. This is an adjustment and paper setup issue within the setup.

The lease rates I am being quoted are almost the same as the 550/560 and about $75 less than the Xerox 700. The 60 month FMV lease rate they are quoting is $1,221 based on a $56,500 purchase price. This is configured with two oversized drawers, the ES-1000, a plockmatic booklet maker, standard finishing unit (punch, staple, etc.). However, the click charges you guys are being quoted are significantly less than what I am being offered at $0.55 color and $0.012 b/w. I'll have to inquire about the difference.

Thanks for your input and I look forward to hearing more from you guys. I meet with Xerox again this week and will report feedback.

 

[msaeger]

I saw the Ricoh 720 in action yesterday and must say I was impressed. It is definitely more "industrial" looking - it was bigger and was constructed of much more metal components. One thing that did surprise me is that they state the output is 72 pages per minute but that is really 72 images per minute. If you run 2 up (8.5" x 11") on an 11" x 17", that would be considered two images so you would only get 36 sheets per minute out.

That's just like I was saying about the rating for pages per month and pm intervals. Everyone not just Ricoh rates everything based on 8.5x11.

One thing with the Ricoh regarding speed is it runs the same speed no matter what thickness paper you run. Most machines will run slower if you do thick paper.

 

[tsprinter]

Msaeger,

I now understand what you meant. Being a Ricoh tech, I know this may be throwing you a meatball, but waht are you seeing from uptime and consistency with the 720? I am beginning to lean that way but don't see sufficient feedback to make me "warm and fuzzy" yet. I have talked to some Xerox 700 owners and have gotten pretty good feedback. Feedback makes it sound like a good machine to start with and will be fairly reliable for first few years and then may outgrow it. How would you position the Ricoh vs. the Xerox?

Thanks

 

[gutenberg]

I am in the process of evaluating various light production digital presses and have narrowed the competition to the Xerox 700, Xerox 550/560, the Ricoh c720/c900 and the Canon 9075 pro. I wanted to evaluate KM but they have no presence in our southeastern location.

We are currently a traditional offset printer that outsources our full color work but now believe we can affordably transition to doing this in-house and would like some advice on both equipment and staff training on prepress differences and workflow.

We anticipate at least 30,000 clicks/month with our current volumes and would expect that to grow as we target more full color work and understand what we can shift from our offset to digital. I would anticipate 50,000 within 18 months. Stock will primarily be 80# uncoated/coated text, 80# uncoated/coated cover, and 100# uncoated/coated cover. We will also be shifting some of our short run one and two color jobs to this machine where it makes sense from a cost standpoint.

Main concerns are:
1. Color quality and consistency - all the machines above have run our test files and seem to have done well. (Xerox 700 ran better on linens and laids but seemed to have a tough time with some flesh tones in some pageant program covers that we run. These were run by the sales guy, who has no real training on the unit so it could have been just user error.)

2. Reliability and uptime - obviously it costs money to not be able to run jobs, not to mention I am OCD about delivering on what I promise, when I promise it.

3. Registration consistency - we will be doing fairly large number of 4/4 business cards, brochures and newsletter and this will be important.

4. Ability to grow with my business. If I can grow this to 60,000 - 75,000 per month, can the machine keep up?

4. Pricing is important but takes a back seat to the issues listed above as a couple of hundred dollars per month on a lease is not a make or break deal.

Thanks for your input and assistance!

You sound alot like our situation, we are currently considering the 700 (as well as a Xante for envelopes)

 

[Happyprinter]

We have been in the same boat for the last year or so, looking at upgrading our digital to a new faster more reliable machine. We have ran the Xerox 700 and the Ricoh 720s and 900s. All the machines had good points as well as bad. As far as the oil Ricoh uses to image, it was a huge factor in not pursuing the 900 or 720s. You will always have a certain amount of streaking in your solids, especially blacks. The Xerox 700 was an impressive machine but did not have the speed or consistency in color especially on heavier stocks. We were not thrilled with any of the machines until we tried the Ricoh 901s. After running samples both heavy 14 pt and 80# gloss text and many others the machine performed well. Solids were dark and solid, half tones looked great and the registration front to back were dead on. And the speed of the machine will make this printer a real contender with the others in the market. I have never been a Ricoh fan, but after running this machine, I am now. My humble opinion, if you are looking at the 700, 720s or 900, spend a little more and get the 901. It's worth it.