Downsizing from and Igen 4 to KM 1100 Ricoh 9110??

[cruisin]

We currently run an Igen 4 and for the most part we are happy with it. We do have issues with it picking on occasion and it of course goes down occasionally like any other machine. Xerox has continued to raise our clicks to a very high level and I am wondering if one of the smaller machines out there will be able to pull a lot if not most of the work off the Igen reliably? We average amount 300,000 color and 250,000 B images a month on the Igen. I am currently looking at possibly two of the smaller KM 1100’s or the new Ricoh 9110. I have also looked at and owned both indigo’s and nexpress’s but am really liking the price and redundancy of two smaller machines.

The upper level machines just seem more robust and I am worried that I will be dealing with color issues and continual downtime with the smaller machines. I guess I am looking for some re-assurance from someone running these machines that I will be able to get the volume and quality out of the smaller machines. Is anyone running the smaller machines pretty hard and having luck keeping color consistency?

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Have you looked at the Versant 2100 or is Xerox no-go due to your dealer?

 

[cruisin]

Xerox is at the bottom of our list after dealing with them for so many years however the salesman did not recommend the versant they are trying to put in an Igen 4 150 or diamond.

 

[CTmang]

We rid ourselves of an iGen3 and Xerox about three years ago. We went with KM and they installed 2 C8000's for less than we were paying for the iGen. Our electricity consumption dropped significantly as well. We ran the C8000's until last year when we updated to 2 C1085's. We are very happy with the C1085's and have no desire to ever go back to the X factor.

 

[arossetti]

Canon will be announcing something soon.

 

[Craig]

Make sure your dealer is able to meet your needs. We have 2 KM boxes and our dealer is less than desirable. We are soon to be dropping our monochrome and going back to our last dealer. Also if you go with a KM dealer, don't expect to get ANY help from the manufacture! They would rather loose an account than take it over from a dealer!!

 

[Green Printer]

Have you looked at the Versant 2100 or is Xerox no-go due to your dealer?

Is the Versant 2100 made by FUJI?

 

[Craig]

Yes, it's part of the Fuji/Xerox or Xerox/Fuji relationship.

 

[Digital print fan]

I have seen plenty of digital print machines , at first most of them seem good. If it is a major part of your business , your new press deserves clear and detailed research . I know your upset with Xerox, but all of the digital companies put their click charge up as the contact goes along ! If one has told you they don't , they are lying. As a machine gets older they need more parts and service . So in looking at production machines , going from a big one to a light production machine seems drastic to me. Look at the same type that can properly handle the types of print figures your talking about. By the way , your in a good position to get a great deal on a machine, like try for fix pricing for three years of s 5 year contract, more options for no increase , and finishing equipment for no cost , good luck.

 

[Shawnd]

Ricoh is doing 5 year fixed click charges on the 7110x, maybe they would do it on the 9110 as well?

 

[Digital print fan]

With fixed pricing , you have to watch a couple of tricks . They can say things like: the toner price went up , so we have to pass it on, or the administration fee has to go up , or the service charge has to go up because of parts costs, or a new fee has come into the lease agreement. The best one is they put it up and don't tell you , and hope you don't see it. Cover all bases , mention that you expect no increases of any kind.
I have seen people get caught out not looking at the details of everything. I know it's tiring but it's worth it.

 

[kevneto]

Stay away from Kodak. While the Nexpress is a fine machine, Kodak is not a business friendly vendor. They only ship parts once a week, which is a huge pain. It took 8 days just to get fuser oil! And now they have tightened their inventory and are charging for parts that used to be included in the click plan.

It's all about Kodak trying to save money at the expense of the customer. Be warned.

 

[edocpublish.com]

Going from iGen to a smaller machine will be a big surprise for you. The iGen does so many things the small machines can't do. The accuracy and registration will be a big surprise.

1. I hate Ricoh, I think they are incompetent and they cheat. I had to use a lawyer to get out of my contract on a new machine (C901) that never worked from Day one.
2. KM has good machines but I don't like the final product. It is too shiny. I have been told my many Techs that it is reliable.
3. Xerox Click charges can be negotiated to be Fix rate on the contract. Go back and look at your contract you will see a checkbox that said, fixed click rate throughout the contract. You can go back and renegotiate your contract.
   1. Pay your bills on time
   2. Only communicate in writing. I love certified letters with signature. It scares the crap out of people. They always think legal battle. CC your corporate lawyer on every letter you send them. (You do not have to hire him. just CC him too keep them in the loop just incase). Write none threatening letters and show the logic and the hardship. It has to be a good story and easy to understand. No rambling, just the highlights. Express how Xerox is hurting your business and it will hurt Xerox if you leave the Xerox Family.
   3. Get a written legitimate offer from a competitor that is willing to give you a credit to remove the iGen and take over the lease in exchange for getting a new machine
   4. Insist on fixing the contract first with Xerox before buying a new machine from Xerox. DO not refinance except if the total contract value is the same. You can add one month to the lease and get a better deal.
   5. Print this post and send it to Xerox corporate (Office of the president) they are very nice people and they will help you if the local guys don't. They are fast in responding.
4. I almost sure you will be happier if you stay with the iGen. I don't have one but I wish I can get one. I have 4 Xerox 700. My volume is low. I may be getting a Presstek DI52 for my static print which is 95% of the business.

 

[Craig]

Having a Xerox 1000 for a little over a year I can say I would have 2 of them before I would ever own an iGen. The thing is a beast. We are currently running 112,000 sheets of 19x13 100lb gloss cover for a variable mailing campaign of over 300,000 pieces. The 1000 has not skipped a beat so far. The more you run it them better it performs. From a cost perspective the iGen is expensive to operate from what owners have told me. Expect a huge jump in your electric bill.

 

[lfelton]

As others have said, separate the contract issues out from the technical evaluation. We've recently started moving over to Xerox from KM and negotiated limits to the price increases into both Nuvera and Versant contracts. Very standard for Xerox, I doubt they would have any issues with you stipulating something reasonable. All manufacturers will try to screw you with click charges, it just seems built into their DNA. They remind me of bad used car salesmen. When I first started my own company back in 2002 Xerox "saw me coming" and screwed me over completely with click charges. Never again will I get fooled like that. But don't fall into the trap of thinking this is just a Xerox character flaw, they ALL will do that.

On the technical side, I would be mindful of two things when moving away from an igen: uptime and productivity. We've found that our latest generation Xerox kit is hugely more stable and productive compared to our KM kit.

 

[AP90]

Having a Xerox 1000 for a little over a year I can say I would have 2 of them before I would ever own an iGen. The thing is a beast. We are currently running 112,000 sheets of 19x13 100lb gloss cover for a variable mailing campaign of over 300,000 pieces. The 1000 has not skipped a beat so far. The more you run it them better it performs. From a cost perspective the iGen is expensive to operate from what owners have told me. Expect a huge jump in your electric bill.

Id have to agree with Craig here. We have had a 1000i for 3-4 months now are are loving it. Like Craig said, they are a beast. We mainly run booklets on it and it just keeps chugging along like its nothing. Have had very few paper jams over the last 400k clicks. You would be surprised at how much your electricity bill will go down when moving away from an iGen. Xerox proposed an iGen to us, and I think the electricity alone would have ran somewhere around 3k a month. You guys might think I'm lying when I say this, but our electric bill has went up $20 over normal each month since we have installed the 1000i. But if you are wanting 2 lighter production machines, Id say you wouldnt be able to get into 2 1000's for anywhere close to what you could get into 2 light production machines. But, a single 1000 would probably handle your volume, and probably not even miss a step doing it.

 

[Despotes]

We installed two Xerox 1000's in January and have field upgraded them both to 1000i. LOVE THEM!. We have them fitted with Plockmatic Pro 50 booklet makers.

 

[Craig]

How did the field upgrade go? Mine is scheduled to happen on Monday.

 

[Yes U Can]

Getting back to the topic, I think this is your next printer

 

[AP90]

Getting back to the topic, I think this is your next printer

I'm not sure what the price tag on that would be, but I'm betting it would be somewhere close to the Xerox 1000, which has been proven for years. Plus, I was looking at the specifications of the Canon and it says it needs 3 phase power, which translates to $$. His iGen is a power hog, so if he wanted that he could stay with the iGen. The 1000 on the other hand runs on single phase, which for us has been dirt cheap to run electrically.

I've never had any hands on experience with Canon, but don't seem to hear much praise on this board about them.