Epson 7900 Inline Spectro

[jmp_pai_2]

Good Morning, We are a general commercial printer using 2 Epson 7900s with xRite inline spectros for proof certification using Certified Web. We are using Screen Trueflow Pre4m to send pdf files to Oris CTW 3.0.0.1 for proofing at our 7900's . We recently upgraded from CTW 2.5.1 to 3.0.0.1. We worked out all the upgrade bugs and everything was working well until last Thursday when suddenly all our proofs from one proofer started failing. We have manually validated them using Fuji Color Path Sync and the proofs are well with in spec. We have double checked all our settings. We contacted Epson and they had us swap specto units. The proof still failed verification and passed manual validation. They really did not have much input beyond swapping units. They would like use to replace the spectro unit. I am not sure the spectro unit is failing. We have done several spretro alignments and restarted the proofer. Does anyone have any insight about Epson inline spectros or possibly something with Oris CTW that may be causing our problem ? Any input or suggestion would be appreciated. - Jeff

 

[chevalier]

Have you checked to make sure that you are indeed verifying to the standard that you created? You could be calibrated to GRACoL but verifying to SWOP. Just a thought.

Can you post the ORIS/Fujifilm quality report for the failure vs the successful manual scan?

 

[jmp_pai_2]

Thanks for your input, chevalier. Yes we have checked to be sure we are verifying to the correct standard.
Please see the screen capture - The left side is validation via Color Path Sync and the right side is the spectral data from the inline spectro



-Jeff

 

[Ritchiec]

Stupid question: you checked the print head and there are no blocked nozzles.
Colin

 

[chevalier]

Can you generate the full report for both? What you've shown me isn't really easily broken down. If not can you give me the measurement data text files themselves? I can throw them into Certified Web and see if I can point anything out. I'm curious what patches are throwing it off so bad as the primaries look reasonably good.

Observations that I can make:
It looks like your on the edge of dE max for both readings. Your manual measurement is using dE "classic". Is your inline measurement configured to use dE "classic" as well? It's best to use dE2000. I'm pretty sure Fujifilm should have you setup for dE2000 to begin with.

The paper that you are using isn't OBA free. Is there a chance your manual device is configured in M1 while the onboard is M0 and this is causing the mismatch? More info on M0, M1, etc. from Techkon and X-rite

 

[gregoo]

Looks like there was an update to certified web on Thursday the 12th, the same day you ran into issues. Did you update the software on Thursday? Could the issues be with the update?

From CGS…

The new version ORIS CERTIFIED // WEB 2.0.5 for Windows is now available.

In addition to general improvements and corrections, this version includes a number of new features. Highlights of Version 1.3 include:

New printing standards
Substrate Evaluation Tolerances for ISO 15311
GRACoL Digital Printing (ISO 15339)
IDEAlliance ISO
Fogra v3 Newspaper
Now the i1 iO table allows you to measure color strips in M1 and M2 mode.
Now the ColorScout A+ XY table can be operated in strip-scanning mode together with the FD-7 measurement device. Additional FD-7 devices can also be used for measuring single color patches now.
For more details on this version, please refer to the attached Release Notes.

 

[jmp_pai_2]

Colin, not a stupid question, you gotta ask. We did several nozzle check and cleaning cycles. We also did a Spectro alignment and restarted the proofer.

 

[jmp_pai_2]

Chevalier, I think I have attached what you requested. Please let us know if you see something we may be overlooking. Thanks for your help.

 

[jmp_pai_2]

gregoo, we have using Certified Web 2.0.5 for about 2weeks before this problem. It was included when we upgraded to CTW 3.0.0.1 in late Feb.

 

[jmp_pai_2]

Chevalier, One other thing, Fuji has requested that we use dE for our inkjet proofers and dE2000 for our digital presses (Xerox Color Press 1000) I am pretty sure that both manual and inline are using dE, I will verify this setting just to be sure. CTW is reporting the embedded device is using M1 and I believe our i1 is also, will double check these also. And thank for M1 and M0 info.

 

[chevalier]

Chevalier, I think I have attached what you requested. Please let us know if you see something we may be overlooking. Thanks for your help.

If you can provide the same data for the manual measurement I could do a comparison. It'd be better if you could give me the reading file itself instead of the results computed by Taskero. Regardless, your i1(model?) scan shows your Cyan as 1.36dE while your inline shows 4.92dE. This leads me to the measurement devices and measurement modes being utilized. Do you have a third device that you can use as a reference?

Chevalier, One other thing, Fuji has requested that we use dE for our inkjet proofers and dE2000 for our digital presses (Xerox Color Press 1000) I am pretty sure that both manual and inline are using dE, I will verify this setting just to be sure. CTW is reporting the embedded device is using M1 and I believe our i1 is also, will double check these also. And thank for M1 and M0 info.

This makes no sense to me. I also use Fujifilm for G7 services and we moved all of our measurements to dE2000 standards. If I were you I would seriously push back for a detailed explanation. It could be something that I am unaware of.

CTW is reporting the embedded device is using M1 and I believe our i1 is also, will double check these also. And thank for M1 and M0 info.

I thought that all spectroproofers were M0 but it turns out I was uninformed. There are newer models since October 2014 that are M1/M2 compliant. However, your device identifies itself as "X-Rite ILS20EP vG216" which is referred to in the 2012 manual documents. Unless Epson and X-rite did not change the model numbers your device is reading M0. See link for more info: Epson Announces New SpectroProofer In-Line Spectrophotometer | Epson US Newsroom UPDATED INFO ABOUT THIS IN SUBSEQUENT POST REPLY

Also your i1 if it is not an i1pro2 is also reading M0. An i1Pro2 can be configured to run in various M modes. If you are working with OBA papers (which you are) it is important that all of your measurement devices be in the same configuration.

 

[gregoo]

Jeff, how are the Epson's connected to the rip? Via a USB cable or over the network?

greg

 

[chevalier]

These are the data that I am looking for: Google Drive link to folder containing PDF and TXT files.

 

[chevalier]

I thought that all spectroproofers were M0 but it turns out I was uninformed. There are newer models since 2014 that are M1/M2 compliant. However, your device identifies itself as "X-Rite ILS20EP vG216" which is referred to in the 2012 manual documents. Unless Epson and X-rite did not change the model numbers your device is reading M0. See link for more info: Epson Announces New SpectroProofer In-Line Spectrophotometer | Epson US Newsroom.

More info from here (Epson website):

Epson SpectroProofer

The SpectroProofer series is an optional high performance in*line spectrophotometer developed jointly with X*Rite, providing automated color measurement directly on a supporting Epson Stylus Pro printer. A simple installation process allows the option to be added at any time. An included print dryer accelerates ink dry*down prior to the patch reading for improved consistency. SpectroProofers are fully compatible with industry leading third-party RIPs and roll media workflows. Contact an Epson Authorized Graphic Arts reseller for pricing, compatibility information and assistance choose from the following:

24” SpectroProofer for the Epson Stylus Pro 7890 and 7900:

Spectro24 X-Rite ILS20EP – Fixed M0 illuminate
Spectro24UV X-Rite ILS20EPUV – Fixed M2 Illuminate, UV-Cut
Spectro24UVS X-Rite ILS30EP – software selectable: M0, M1, and M2 Illuminates, XRGA compliant

44” SpectroProofer for the Epson Stylus Pro 9890 and 9900:

Spectro44 X-Rite ILS20EP – Fixed M0 illuminate
Spectro44UV X-Rite ILS20EPUV – Fixed M2 Illuminate, UV-Cut
Spectro44UVS X-Rite ILS30EP – software selectable: M0, M1, and M2 illuminates, XRGA compliant

For optimal SpectroProofer performance install the latest firmware for your printer using the LFP Remote Panel 2 utility software
Part Number: See Above

X-Rite ILS30EP

The X-Rite ILS30EP is available as a stand-alone option for existing SpectroProofer (ILS20EP/ILS20EPUV) customers requiring support for the M1 Illuminate standard or XRGA hardware compliance with other current X-Rite devices. Before purchasing, contact your reseller or RIP manufacturer for details on the necessary software version as additional upgrade costs may apply.
Part Number: C12C932021

 

[jmp_pai_2]

If you can provide the same data for the manual measurement I could do a comparison. It'd be better if you could give me the reading file itself instead of the results computed by Taskero. Regardless, your i1(model?) scan shows your Cyan as 1.36dE while your inline shows 4.92dE. This leads me to the measurement devices and measurement modes being utilized. Do you have a third device that you can use as a reference?



I thought that all spectroproofers were M0 but it turns out I was uninformed. There are newer models since October 2014 that are M1/M2 compliant. However, your device identifies itself as "X-Rite ILS20EP vG216" which is referred to in the 2012 manual documents. Unless Epson and X-rite did not change the model numbers your device is reading M0. See link for more info: Epson Announces New SpectroProofer In-Line Spectrophotometer | Epson US Newsroom UPDATED INFO ABOUT THIS IN SUBSEQUENT POST REPLY

Also your i1 if it is not an i1pro2 is also reading M0. An i1Pro2 can be configured to run in various M modes. If you are working with OBA papers (which you are) it is important that all of your measurement devices be in the same configuration.

Our i1Pro2 does read cyan with a 1.36dE. However patch A2 (100c) reads 3.27dE with our inline. I think the 4.92dE is from patch A1 (100c 60k). I saw the sample PDFs you posted, I can give you the text files but do not have a PDF printer setup on the machine that runs Certified Web so I do think I generate the PDF report.



This makes no sense to me. I also use Fujifilm for G7 services and we moved all of our measurements to dE2000 standards. If I were you I would seriously push back for a detailed explanation. It could be something that I am unaware of.

I will be in contact with Fuji on this issue and clarification, thanks for information.



I will verify that all our devices are running in the same M mode, M0 in our case.

 

[jmp_pai_2]

Greg, we are connected via our network. Not USB.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

You need to use the dE formula required by the specification being proofed. For example, with Fogra39 / ISO Coated v2 – one has to use dE 76 / dE ab. This should not be an arbitrary choice or based on whether a machine is inkjet or toner based. Calibration is different, however we are not discussing calibration here but certification to a specification.


Stephen Marsh

 

[chevalier]

It looks like something is wrong with your inline spectro. I would first totally, completely, absolutely verify that all of the software is configured properly. After that is exhausted I'd talk to Epson about upgrading to the ILS30EP or replacing the exact same ILS20EP unit.

You mentioned that you realigned the unit. Have you checked the calibration strip and cleaned it?

Oris Certified Web report from your TXT file "G7 Sync Digital Page 11x7_FOLD1_FRONT_3.txt" is attached.

 

[jmp_pai_2]

It looks like something is wrong with your inline spectro. I would first totally, completely, absolutely verify that all of the software is configured properly. After that is exhausted I'd talk to Epson about upgrading to the ILS30EP or replacing the exact same ILS20EP unit.

We will verify all our settings to be sure that they are correct. Then we will see were we are at. We have already had a conversation with Epson about a replacement spectro.

 

[jmp_pai_2]

You mentioned that you realigned the unit. Have you checked the calibration strip and cleaned it?

We have checked and clean the calibration strip. One problem we may have is that the we currently have the black backer in the proofer. Not sure why as we calibrate using a white backer. It seems that the white backer can't be found in our plant. I inherited this proofer when I started here. Currently working to improve color management and process control.