Epson 9900 / Wasatch RIP - Black and white prints turning out a bit green

[TLPSfremantle]

Hi, we have an Epson 9900 printer that's controlled via our Wasatch RIP. We're having issues at the moment where black and white prints turn out with a slight green tinge to them. We've tried different colour profiles, converting the colour from CMYK or RGB to greyscale or vice versa but havent seen to come up with the solution as yet.

any tips or ideas?

Cheers

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Tips and ideas? Sure...

Use or create a correct media setting for the paper and ink. Linearise and calibrate the media setting to tight average/maximum dE values.

Next, use or create the correct destination ICC profile for the media setting previously mentioned. This is done with all colour management turned off when running the profiling/characterisation chart. Once created, turn colour management back on and set this as the proofer media profile. This profile may benefit from using higher GCR than usually used for a standard proofer profile.

Setup the correct input and or simulation ICC settings that are used as the source to convert to the final printer space.

Last but not least, consider the final print viewing conditions and do they match the lighting conditions that the proofer device profile was created for.


Stephen Marsh

 

[David Milisock]

Hi, we have an Epson 9900 printer that's controlled via our Wasatch RIP. We're having issues at the moment where black and white prints turn out with a slight green tinge to them. We've tried different colour profiles, converting the colour from CMYK or RGB to greyscale or vice versa but havent seen to come up with the solution as yet.

any tips or ideas?

Cheers

In what lighting source? We have to create color builds directly for the use of the product. This is assuming that you media profile under D50 lighting conditions has a proper gray balance. This issue in many cases has nothing to do with an ICC profile and in fact you can change the hue of the color shift by changing light sources.

 

[TLPSfremantle]

Thanks for the tips all, the wide format side of things is pretty new to me, we're currently just throwing images into the RIP and using the profiles that came with it. I'll have to have a play around and see if i can tone down the green some in the images. in which case im hitting trouble with images that feature grey and green dominantly.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

I would sincerely suggest that you learn and implement correct wide format colour management.

Happy to discuss my previous post further.


Stephen Marsh

Thanks for the tips all, the wide format side of things is pretty new to me, we're currently just throwing images into the RIP and using the profiles that came with it. I'll have to have a play around and see if i can tone down the green some in the images. in which case im hitting trouble with images that feature grey and green dominantly.

 

[David Milisock]

Thanks for the tips all, the wide format side of things is pretty new to me, we're currently just throwing images into the RIP and using the profiles that came with it. I'll have to have a play around and see if i can tone down the green some in the images. in which case im hitting trouble with images that feature grey and green dominantly.

​You're going to get that with ink jet inks. We always laugh and say that all we need do is show the print in the right light. Don't like how it looks here? Move around the corner.

I have a great test file CMYK in 5% increments, all four channels are done as vector and image. I use it to tweak the gray balance in media profiles. For sure you have to have proper profiling equipment and a controlled light source and viewing conditions to do the tweaks but they change the medias so often without notice that actually creating your own profiles is a waste. If you want the file let me know.

The funniest person is the guy that swears that the inkjet proof matches the press, I had one of those one day and all I had to do was step back out of the light booth and show him the press proof and the inkjet proof under office lighting conditions. Things always get quite then.

We make sure that under our controlled environment we have a good gray balance and then test color builds on the proper product, viewed under the lighting conditions the product will be used in, we view to the eye, spectrophotometers and the eye are too different devices. We've have had situations where the certain products and colors were invisible to the wavelength of a light source.

DO NOT PRINT FROM ILLUSTRATOR for your tests. For some reason AI CC 2014 and newer is reaking havoc with ink jet RIPS. Always buy the same ink product and medias. Don't settle for discounts in medias, inks, hand grenades or brain surgeons.

 

[TLPSfremantle]

I would sincerely suggest that you learn and implement correct wide format colour management.

Happy to discuss my previous post further.


Stephen Marsh

Thanks Stephen,


Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Because we're a design studio, everything we design is in CMYK, with client files that are going through the Versant we preflight and colour convert them and let the RIP impose, but with the Wasatch and Epson i keep getting conflicting stories as to the best way to send files across. Some say convert to CMYK and send across, others say send as RGB and let the RIP Convert them, then there's the whole DCS2.0 thing which baffles me. . . The Epson is a great machine and the Wasatch RIP has helped us alot, but so far we've been just lucky throwing files at it, im at that stage where i think making sure my files are spot on and the colours are good is my priority.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Wouldn't you want to leave the files as spot if the client has them and let the RIP do the work?

 

[TLPSfremantle]

files from clients come in all forms and profiles, my question was do i let the RIP convert the colours or do I do it myself in the preflight?

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Almost certainly the RIP. Someone may come along an give a better answer, though.

 

[Correct Color]

First off, it sounds to me like if you're serious about this you really do need to learn at least the basics of color management.

As far as your problem, it's a profile issue. Just as simple as that.

The first and most important lesson to learn about large format inkjet printing is that Profiles Are Everything.

They're everything because what a RIP does -- its actual, important function, not imposition or other add-on stuff -- is to convert pixel information into dot information using information in a profile. In other words, the profile tells the printer what dots to print.

And black turning to green is actually a pretty common problem. It's particularly common among vehicle wrappers who'll print a black that looks pretty good inside, and then they get it outside and it turns a weak greenish color. The issue can always be solved with a proper profile. But to me, that doesn't mean anything you can download. It means a profile made in your environment on your machine on your media and expressly for your needs.

That's number one.

Then I'd say you need to understand what a color managed workflow is and how to achieve it.

And that means understanding that you can't just say "RGB" and "CMYK." You have to know which RGB and which CMYK.

What I'd say just to kind of point you in the right direction is that typically, RGB color spaces are larger than CMYK color spaces. And it's almost certain that the color space of your Epson has a much larger gamut than the default CMYK color space in whatever applications you're using. So your workflow should always be to work and edit in some RGB space, to tag your work, to set up the RIP to expect your work in your working space, and then to let the RIP convert to your printer profile at print time.

Bottom line is that these days, the process of printing digital color has gotten so advanced that if all you're after is a relatively pretty picture, just about anyone can get there right out of the box and with very little effort.

But if you're serious about doing it right, the learning curve is still steep, and there's only one right way to do it.



Mike Adams
Correct Color

 

[David Milisock]

files from clients come in all forms and profiles, my question was do i let the RIP convert the colours or do I do it myself in the preflight?

We have had the gray issue and the off spot color issue with the Roland, the Mimaki and two different Epsons with two different RIPS. I echo the advice for developing decent media profiles with good gray balance and devising a proper color managed process. That process will be different if you're proofing for press, if so then work with the pressroom or your print provider.

If you're outputting banners, art prints, general graphics in general it's a bit easier since you don't have to match a specific device.

For serious work that does not have to match a press what we do it convert all application color to Adobe RGB 1998, set the RIP to use that profile and send an RGB PDF file. The color is pleasing, with that said if you have critical needs specifically critical matching spot colors you'll need to work hard on that, some just never will. Other colors, specifically grays, and pastel hues WILL ONLY MATCH UNDER SPECIFIC VIEWING CONDITIONS. The inks for these devices are highly reactive to different light temperatures. Nothing you can do about it.

 

[David Milisock]

First off, it sounds to me like if you're serious about this you really do need to learn at least the basics of color management.

As far as your problem, it's a profile issue. Just as simple as that.

The first and most important lesson to learn about large format inkjet printing is that Profiles Are Everything.

They're everything because what a RIP does -- its actual, important function, not imposition or other add-on stuff -- is to convert pixel information into dot information using information in a profile. In other words, the profile tells the printer what dots to print.

And black turning to green is actually a pretty common problem. It's particularly common among vehicle wrappers who'll print a black that looks pretty good inside, and then they get it outside and it turns a weak greenish color. The issue can always be solved with a proper profile. But to me, that doesn't mean anything you can download. It means a profile made in your environment on your machine on your media and expressly for your needs.

That's number one.

Then I'd say you need to understand what a color managed workflow is and how to achieve it.

And that means understanding that you can't just say "RGB" and "CMYK." You have to know which RGB and which CMYK.

What I'd say just to kind of point you in the right direction is that typically, RGB color spaces are larger than CMYK color spaces. And it's almost certain that the color space of your Epson has a much larger gamut than the default CMYK color space in whatever applications you're using. So your workflow should always be to work and edit in some RGB space, to tag your work, to set up the RIP to expect your work in your working space, and then to let the RIP convert to your printer profile at print time.

Bottom line is that these days, the process of printing digital color has gotten so advanced that if all you're after is a relatively pretty picture, just about anyone can get there right out of the box and with very little effort.

But if you're serious about doing it right, the learning curve is still steep, and there's only one right way to do it.



Mike Adams
Correct Color

Mike I don't disagree that this fellow needs a serious commitment to color managed environment and that proper gray balanced media profiles are the foundation to a managed solution but they are not everything.

If you believe that you're going to create a media profile that can reproduce warm gray 2C that works in multiple environments you're incorrect. It wil be difficult in a controlled environment but the moment that printed piece leave the light booth you're screwed. We've been doing this a long tome and there are many colors that we just have to print what views as totally incorrect in a controlled environment but react in an acceptable manner in the environment where they will be used.

 

[gordo]

In what lighting source? We have to create color builds directly for the use of the product. This is assuming that you media profile under D50 lighting conditions has a proper gray balance. This issue in many cases has nothing to do with an ICC profile and in fact you can change the hue of the color shift by changing light sources.

This is CRITICAL with inkjet - especially neutrals where slight differences in the light source can have a major impact on appearance of neutrals.

 

[TLPSfremantle]

First off, it sounds to me like if you're serious about this you really do need to learn at least the basics of color management.

As far as your problem, it's a profile issue. Just as simple as that.

The first and most important lesson to learn about large format inkjet printing is that Profiles Are Everything.

They're everything because what a RIP does -- its actual, important function, not imposition or other add-on stuff -- is to convert pixel information into dot information using information in a profile. In other words, the profile tells the printer what dots to print.

And black turning to green is actually a pretty common problem. It's particularly common among vehicle wrappers who'll print a black that looks pretty good inside, and then they get it outside and it turns a weak greenish color. The issue can always be solved with a proper profile. But to me, that doesn't mean anything you can download. It means a profile made in your environment on your machine on your media and expressly for your needs.

That's number one.

Then I'd say you need to understand what a color managed workflow is and how to achieve it.

And that means understanding that you can't just say "RGB" and "CMYK." You have to know which RGB and which CMYK.

What I'd say just to kind of point you in the right direction is that typically, RGB color spaces are larger than CMYK color spaces. And it's almost certain that the color space of your Epson has a much larger gamut than the default CMYK color space in whatever applications you're using. So your workflow should always be to work and edit in some RGB space, to tag your work, to set up the RIP to expect your work in your working space, and then to let the RIP convert to your printer profile at print time.

Bottom line is that these days, the process of printing digital color has gotten so advanced that if all you're after is a relatively pretty picture, just about anyone can get there right out of the box and with very little effort.

But if you're serious about doing it right, the learning curve is still steep, and there's only one right way to do it.



Mike Adams
Correct Color

Thanks for the info, yeah i shortened my message to just RGB and CMYK, but we use the ADOBE RGB profile and GraCol CMYK, but what you wrote makes total sense, i was always confused as to how the 11 colour Epson was really using the full width of it's Colour Gamut if i was only ever sending it CMYK profiled images.

The setup we have and the fact that im the only printer here as well as being the designer means i cant commit a huge amount of either finance or time to a fully established colour management system, so getting a visually pleasing image is more important to me than getting something 100% accurate. We've positioned ourselves in the market that way and we do well from it, i guess i was looking for some general tips on how to tweak our system a little to get the best possible results. the greeny grey situation was one area i was looking to improve on.

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Thanks Stephen,


Any information would be greatly appreciated.

. . The Epson is a great machine and the Wasatch RIP has helped us alot, but so far we've been just lucky throwing files at it, im at that stage where i think making sure my files are spot on and the colours are good is my priority.

Let’s start at the beginning. I will presume that you use Epson inks with photo black for photo/proofing media. The following is the first thing that you need to understand and setup correctly: media! What media are you using? You have to match the RIP media settings to the media. It all starts from there. If you are using a media that you don’t have a specific matching setting for in the RIP, then it is all downhill from this point.

Different RIPs use different terminology, however a media setting will control and describe linearization, total ink limits, single channel ink limits, gray balance etc. Good RIPs will let you calibrate these settings using a spectrophotometer so that you can have repeatable and consistent results. Use the incorrect media setting with the incorrect paper and you get incorrect results. It is that simple. Kodak Proofing Software uses the term “Media Configuration”. CGS ORIS Color Tuner uses the term “Reference Printer Profile”. Wasatch uses the term “Imaging Configuration”:

http://www.wasatch.com/ic/imageconfi...l=epson7900#a3

Notice how there are only a “handful” of “out of the box” supported Imaging Configurations? Most are for Epson papers, with a couple of Lexjet medias thrown in.

Forgetting ICC profiles, lighting and viewing conditions for now, as that comes later. If you are using a different brand and or type of paper than the Imaging Configuration set in the RIP, then this would be the first reason why your colour output is incorrect, with green or other hue errors (or other errors such as pooling/mottling, drying problems etc). Sometimes one can be lucky and use an Epson photo gloss setting for a third party brand glossy photo media, however this is rarely going to provide the same level of quality output as using the Epson media or a custom configuration created for the third party media.

Inkjet printing is a *system*. The system is complex, however the components are simple. There is a specific make/model of printer. Then there is a specific combination of inks. Then there is the media. All of these components of the system need to be aligned. If one of these is off, then there will be issues, sometimes small – other times large. In addition there are ICC profiles, however that is a discussion for later.

So, what make/model of media are you using in the printer? Does it have an exact/matching Imaging Configuration set in the RIP?

If you are not using one of the common Epson or Lexjet medias that are supported “out of the box” with a Wasach Imaging Configuration file, then you will need to create a custom Imaging Configuration that is specific to the printer/resolution/ink set/media in use:

http://www.wasatch.com/profiling_wit...tech_note.html


Stephen Marsh

 

[David Milisock]

This is CRITICAL with inkjet - especially neutrals where slight differences in the light source can have a major impact on appearance of neutrals.

Unfortunately if you're delivering finished product you will get clients that bitch because their window graphics which contains neutral colors shift red or green, usually green when the parking light go on. The other issue is that constraining an inkjet to a press calibrated CMYK gamut will make angry customers faster then you can imagine. Inkjet is not press and (now I'll make everyone mad) they make poor press proofing devices.

 

[David Milisock]

Thanks for the info, yeah i shortened my message to just RGB and CMYK, but we use the ADOBE RGB profile and GraCol CMYK, but what you wrote makes total sense, i was always confused as to how the 11 colour Epson was really using the full width of it's Colour Gamut if i was only ever sending it CMYK profiled images.

The setup we have and the fact that im the only printer here as well as being the designer means i cant commit a huge amount of either finance or time to a fully established colour management system, so getting a visually pleasing image is more important to me than getting something 100% accurate. We've positioned ourselves in the market that way and we do well from it, i guess i was looking for some general tips on how to tweak our system a little to get the best possible results. the greeny grey situation was one area i was looking to improve on.

Take the file that produced green gray, convert to Adobe RGB in the application, make sure your RIP is set to use Adobe RGB and send the file as an Adobe RGB. You'll find that most factory media profiles tend to work best when sent RGB data. It work on our two Epsons and the Mimaki, the Roland is another story.

 

[David Milisock]

As a follow up to this the one variable with a CMYK workflow with manufacture created media profiles is that you do not know what CMYK profile they used when creating the profile. So if you set the RIP to the wrong or the application if the RIP honors embedded profile your gray balance is screwed to begin with.

 

[Correct Color]

If you believe that you're going to create a media profile that can reproduce warm gray 2C that works in multiple environments you're incorrect. It wil be difficult in a controlled environment but the moment that printed piece leave the light booth you're screwed. We've been doing this a long tome and there are many colors that we just have to print what views as totally incorrect in a controlled environment but react in an acceptable manner in the environment where they will be used.

Yes and no.

I've been at this a long time as well, and one of the first things I indoctrinate clients with is the message that when they're looking at any printed image, what they're looking at is reflected light, so obviously the light that's being reflected has a huge impact on what they see. My example is to image they're looking at anything in a darkroom with red lights. What color will everything be?

There are also inksets -- and materials -- that are notorious for hue-sifts, particularly in grey.

However, the idea that there is no way to control any of this simply isn't true. Probably the single worst example of grey hue-shifting is dye-sublimated Chromaluxe Metal. I've worked with several clients who print on this material, and yes, just making a typical profile, it's so bad that walking a sample from one room to the next, you could say you were "screwed." But black generation strategies can play a huge part in accentuating, or eliminating this problem. Enough to get -- even on this material -- from "screwed" to more than acceptable.

Of course, in that instance, a huge part is played by light and light-light black.

Now since the OP asked about dark black, his light channels don't matter as they won't be firing, but I can tell you that one of the main reasons clients call me is for exactly the issue he's having. And it is absolutely controllable with proper ink limiting and black generation -- on any device and with any inkset. The only proviso would be that the media be capable of carrying enough ink to have a dense enough total ink limit.

The issue usually confronting inkjet printers regarding grey hue-shift is that the more you design an black generation strategy to control it, the more you introduce grain into highlight neutral areas. But with light and light-light black, it's possible to bring black in so early, and so strong, as to get an entirely acceptable greys --Pantone or otherwise -- in just about any reasonable lighting.

Of course feel free to argue, but I've got plenty of clients running vehicle wraps on H2 Seikos -- the only commercial triple-black inkjet -- who would strongly disagree.

And as far as I'm concerned, that's actually a much more challenging environment than the one the OP has.

We've positioned ourselves in the market that way and we do well from it, i guess i was looking for some general tips on how to tweak our system a little to get the best possible results. the greeny grey situation was one area i was looking to improve on.

And what I'm saying is to forget that. It doesn't exist. As long as you don't have full, complete, total color management in place, expect to live with less than optimum results.

Personally, I cringe at the word "tweak." Fact is that if you "tweak" this area, you might fix one thing, but you'll create a problem elsewhere. There are myriad ways to do it wrong...

but there's only one way to really do it right.



Mike