EskoArtworks, Equinox?
- Thread starter zman
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gordo
Well-known member
I can't speak to the Equinox product itself, but I can speak to the concept it (and similar systems) represents - namely replacing spot colors with an extended process color inkset.
The concept works, and it works very well. It adds profit margins to the printer (by reducing production costs) and is a great differentiator for the printer because it lowers productions costs for the brand owner while at the same time providing them greater flexibility in their inventory control.
Here are some of the value/ROI impacts:
• The printer drives the production specification - not the print buyer. This makes it harder for competitors to take the business away
• More efficient press utilization and ability to use less expensive presses with fewer units
• Greater efficiency via simpler combo sheets and maximizes sheet usage while minimizing wastage
• Virtual elimination of makeready since all jobs print with the same inkset
• Provide more creative options by eliminating the restrictions on the number of spot colors that can be used on a package
• It brings long run cost efficiencies to short runs enabling more marketing options for the brand owner (e.g. enables packaging localization)
• Enables just-in-time inventory control for the brand owner
• Align color across various printing methods or media (E.g. match the plastic cap color on the product label or offset color on flexo)
• Simulate arbitrary colors (e.g. presswork done by a competitor or unique brand colors)
• Facilitate aligning real world product-to-print color recipes
• Create multi-printshop “safe” colors
• Extended gamut also available for contone images
best, gordo
Yes, we currently have a cust. using extended color scheme or recipe color for spot and process label work...I would put their success at 75 to 80% depending spot color requirement, substrate press conditions and most importantly client tolorance.
thanks for your response. We have another vendor looking into printing this way and has reached out to us in regards to Equinox.
thanks for your response. We have another vendor looking into printing this way and has reached out to us in regards to Equinox.
gordo
Well-known member
Chief_1975
Well-known member
Resurrecting this thread, we are looking into preparing files for extend gamut printing and I was wondering what systems are available to automatically convert PDFs with normal CMYK process + various Pantone's to a PDF using a extend gamut colour set. We would not be printing the files themselves, they would be supplied to third party printer of our customers choice.
Would Equinox do the this?, do you have to be a 'colour scientist' to use it and are there any other alternatives out there ? Thanks
Would Equinox do the this?, do you have to be a 'colour scientist' to use it and are there any other alternatives out there ? Thanks
gordo
Well-known member
Kodak Spotless and Esko Equinox are the two main systems for extended process printing.
I don't believe that these systems output a PDF that can then be sent to a print shop for output at their location (I may be wrong but that is my understanding).
Typically the set up for extended process printing is done in the workflow of the printer that will be doing the job.
No special knowledge is needed on the part of the person who creates the files. The skill is in the printer selecting the appropriate extended process colours (which are job, substrate, process dependent). Usually the printer does an audit of the customer's spot color usage, and based on that a set of extended process colors are identified. These are then tested and confirmed on press. So you can't just create an extended process color PDF and toss it over the wall to any printer - even if the could separate the PDF.
best, gordo
I don't believe that these systems output a PDF that can then be sent to a print shop for output at their location (I may be wrong but that is my understanding).
Typically the set up for extended process printing is done in the workflow of the printer that will be doing the job.
No special knowledge is needed on the part of the person who creates the files. The skill is in the printer selecting the appropriate extended process colours (which are job, substrate, process dependent). Usually the printer does an audit of the customer's spot color usage, and based on that a set of extended process colors are identified. These are then tested and confirmed on press. So you can't just create an extended process color PDF and toss it over the wall to any printer - even if the could separate the PDF.
best, gordo
Stephen Marsh
Well-known member
We have a packaging customer (converter/printer) that uses Kodak Spotless. They did not buy the system from us, however I know a little about their process from supporting their Kodak Matchprint inkjet proofing. Spotless is an integrated part of their Prinergy Workflow. The fingerprinting, profile creation and setup of the whole process is done with Kodak when they buy the solution. Artwork containing CMYK+spot colours come in to their system and Prinergy refines these into trapped CMYKOV composite vector/raster PDF files (CMYK + orange & violet as they have to match a lot of blue brand colours). Jobs are ganged up for plating and then then output as 6 separation plates using Staccato FM screening.
I know that Gordo has a deep knowledge of this product from his Creo days.
Stephen Marsh
I know that Gordo has a deep knowledge of this product from his Creo days.
Stephen Marsh
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gordo
Well-known member
Just so there's no misunderstanding, Spotless can work with 0, 1, 2, or three extended process colours. The hue of those inks is not preset. They are defined by the colour usage of the customer (in Stephens example orange & violet were used as that specific customer had to match a lot of blue brand colours).
You don't have to use FM screening - but, for a variety of reasons FM is usually the best way to go.
Spotless is mostly used in packaging and labels (flexo and offset) but it's also used for things like credit cards, hotel key cards, and store gift card as well as greeting cards.
I was part of the Spotless development team for Creo/Kodak as well as its marketing manager but I am no longer associated with Kodak.
best, gordo
You don't have to use FM screening - but, for a variety of reasons FM is usually the best way to go.
Spotless is mostly used in packaging and labels (flexo and offset) but it's also used for things like credit cards, hotel key cards, and store gift card as well as greeting cards.
I was part of the Spotless development team for Creo/Kodak as well as its marketing manager but I am no longer associated with Kodak.
best, gordo
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Stephen Marsh
Well-known member
In the case of the site that I know, I believe that they offset print on flatsheet metal using UV inks. Paint cans are a big part of their work. Some of the sheets are pre-printed for a white basecoat, other times they print white as a 7th colour so that the metal substrate can be used as part of the package design (in either case the white is not very clean).
Stephen Marsh
Stephen Marsh
PrepressDan
Well-known member
Yes, Equinox does output a PDF. But, are you looking to convert both CT and LW or just LW? The reason I ask, if you are bringing CT's into the mix, you probably want to do this in a non automated way so you can view the result and tweak the settings when needed. Esko does have a automated solution for converting, but they also have a plug in for Photoshop which allows you do do image expanded gamut.
Hope this helps.
meddington
Well-known member
I agree with Jeffkin15. If your intention is to utilize the expanded gamut on CTs, taking full advantage of the gamut available, than the images will benefit more significantly from individual attention of Equinox's plugin. An automated conversion may result in some use of the extra gamut, but often may be only marginally better than a process color separation.
I'd also venture to say that an item designed for 4/c process + spot may not be ideally suited for straight conversion to expanded gamut, and depending on the printing methodology, could suffer. Best results are likely from an early binding, rather than late binding workflow.
I'd also venture to say that an item designed for 4/c process + spot may not be ideally suited for straight conversion to expanded gamut, and depending on the printing methodology, could suffer. Best results are likely from an early binding, rather than late binding workflow.
I just heard a major prepress company in Belgium has ripped out Equinox and are demanding a refund. Has anyone else made the fatal mistake of falling for Esko's marketing hype? Funny how there hasn't been any posting on it for over a year? Also, their Photoshop 7-color plug-in will only run in CS3 or 4. WTF...?
Brad
Brad
PrepressDan
Well-known member
I can tell you for a fact that the plug ins work on CS 5.1 (that's the latest we have). As far as a customer ripping it out. Not all that surprised. Not because the product doesn't work, but it is difficult for a prepress house to separate to expanded gamut when they are dealing with outside printers. Remember, printers generally don't want to go expanded gamut unless they are the ones controlling the inks that will be used. If you have a press, and are running expanded gamut, the easiest way to make money is to keep the same 5,6 or 7 inks on press as often as possible.
As a converter we have Equinox. We use it just for a few key brand customers that have required their jobs to run 7 color. For us it works fine but we do not try and shove all work to expanded gamut.
Hello Jeff, thanks for correcting me on the PSD plug-in. Assuming you paid 40-50k, where's the value in only using Equinox for a 'few' customers. According to Esko sales pitch, they're preaching over 90% of jobs can be converted to 7-color. As brand owners continue to demand 'global standardization', how can that ever happen if the 7-color ink set isn't also standardized? Who's writing the checks, the brand owners or the printers? We certainly know Esko keep cashing them!
Glad you're also not surprised that Belgium company pulled the pin.
Brad
Glad you're also not surprised that Belgium company pulled the pin.
Brad
PrepressDan
Well-known member
LOL, well for us the value was keeping the customer. We also gained business from this customer because their other venders where not willing to make the investment where as we were.
chevalier
Well-known member
Expanded gamut is the future and I would bet now that Xrite, Pantone and Esko are now owned by the same parent company (Danaher) that there will be a resurrection of Pantone Hexachrome or something similar. A standard "so-to-speak". Where the hell is FOGRA or IDEAlliance about expanded gamut?
The biggest problem with separators / prepress houses / third party prepress / premedia (whatever the hell they call themselves this month) companies defining expanded gamuts is color calibration processes for us printers. We aren't given the information, time or (most importantly) money to calibrate for these wildly varying gamuts/ink-sets.
Believe me, our management, our press operators and our internal prepress would love to throw in 6 or 7 inks and never change them but if every job has a different gamuts/ink-sets it defeats the nearly the entire purpose of an expanded gamut.
The biggest problem with separators / prepress houses / third party prepress / premedia (whatever the hell they call themselves this month) companies defining expanded gamuts is color calibration processes for us printers. We aren't given the information, time or (most importantly) money to calibrate for these wildly varying gamuts/ink-sets.
Believe me, our management, our press operators and our internal prepress would love to throw in 6 or 7 inks and never change them but if every job has a different gamuts/ink-sets it defeats the nearly the entire purpose of an expanded gamut.
X-Rite, Pantone & Esko? Three wrongs don't make a right. Especially Pantone. Have you seen their latest clusterfk Pantone+ book? Try locating a PMS number now. All over the shop (you must refer to index in the back of the book)! Trust me, hanging your hat on these guys driving '7-color' management won't happen in our lifetime. They're too busy polluting the planet with their plethora of spot colors.
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you. Never change your inks I say!
Sadly, a monopoly (i.e. Danaher) only breeds further complacency and higher costs; not innovation. Sounds like the tail will be wagging the dog for many years to come...
Brad.
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you. Never change your inks I say!
Sadly, a monopoly (i.e. Danaher) only breeds further complacency and higher costs; not innovation. Sounds like the tail will be wagging the dog for many years to come...
Brad.
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gordo
Well-known member
Expanded gamut printing to replace spot colors with extended process color screen tint builds has been done successfully in production for at least the past 8 years, primarily in offset for labels and packaging and much less in flex.
The barriers to more widespread usage are prepress trade shops who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo with their legacy files, and printers who do not take a proactive sales and marketing attitude towards their manufacturing process and their customers. This means that the brand owners often have to force their print suppliers to adopt the process. Not good.
As far as adopting some kind of standard ink set is concerned - that would severely restrict the potential for this process. Generally the printshop settles on their own standard extended process ink set based on their specific customer needs.
Generally, most printers who run this process use a standard 6 colour ink set but are set up for 7. That way they only do one wash-up i.e. they might run CMYKRB then switch out the B for G.
The ones that I know that are doing this are doing extremely well financially with it and they have very happy customers.
best, gordo
The barriers to more widespread usage are prepress trade shops who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo with their legacy files, and printers who do not take a proactive sales and marketing attitude towards their manufacturing process and their customers. This means that the brand owners often have to force their print suppliers to adopt the process. Not good.
As far as adopting some kind of standard ink set is concerned - that would severely restrict the potential for this process. Generally the printshop settles on their own standard extended process ink set based on their specific customer needs.
Generally, most printers who run this process use a standard 6 colour ink set but are set up for 7. That way they only do one wash-up i.e. they might run CMYKRB then switch out the B for G.
The ones that I know that are doing this are doing extremely well financially with it and they have very happy customers.
best, gordo
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