FSC approved paper - YOU CAN'T CALL IT THAT!

[lfelton]

I had a rather curious email this morning from "FSC UK" requesting that we remove all reference to FSC and the Forest Stewardship Council from our web site. We make absolutely no claim to be FSC COC certified and neither do we use the FSC logo or any other branding or claim that any of our products are FSC certified. However, under paper description we do give all of the information given to us by the manufacturer and that includes whether the paper is FSC (or PEFC, or NAPM or whatever it is).

However, FSC UK claim the acronym FSC and the words "Forest Stewardship Council" are trademarks and that we may not use them AT ALL unless we pay them a sum of money to become FSC COC certified.

So, presumably this post and hundreds of others, plus hundreds of news articles are infringing their trademark? What are they going to do about it?

Needless to say, I think they are incorrect, but I am not a trademark lawyer so I will be complying with this request. The FSC COC proposal that is sitting on my desk at the moment will also be going into the trash bin!

What do you lot think of the FSC's position on this?

 

[meddington]

I don't know a lot about trademark law, and it seems heavy handed, but they might be within their rights. They apparently feel the use of the FSC acronym in the context presented on your website is an infringement, and could be misleading to others (that you or your products are certified). I'd see if there's a trademark forum out there to post this question, as it isn't really black and white.

We had so much trouble getting approval on a news blurb about our FSC certification for our website that we just dropped it entirely.

 

[oxburger]

If you're using FSC paper, you must be FSC certified from my understanding.

 

[Muddy]

If you're using FSC paper, you must be FSC certified from my understanding.

I am an FSC certified printer and my understanding is that anyone can use FSC paper but you just can't put the acronym on anything or refer to FSC certifed sheets unless you are certified.

You can't put the Coca Cola logo on anything without Cokes permission and this is much the same.

 

[meddington]

If you're using FSC paper, you must be FSC certified from my understanding.

Muddy is correct. You can use the paper without certification, but you can't use the FSC logo in any way, or make any claims of FSC certification...or apparently list the FSC acronym in the paper description on your website.

 

[SlaveToTheMan]

Yet another case of rampant greed, bureaucracy & general ignorance ruling the day. I love it!!

 

[Craig]

I wonder how many of us will get emails for using FSC on this forum??? FSC FSC FSC FSC FSC FSC FSC FSC FSC FSC!

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it's very similar to other trademarked industry "things".

You cannot use the IDEAlliance G7 logo unless you are a G7 master printer and have paid your dues and paid the certification "fees". (Fogra, too.)

Vendors cannot call their proofing systems "SWOP Certified" unless they have paid the dues and done the work to do so.

Getting "Chain of Custody" to say that "you" are using FSC certified products takes about 8 weeks and $3,000.

Hey, the FSC wants revenue just like everyone else out there.

 

[Craig]

Muddy is correct. You can use the paper without certification, but you can't use the FSC logo in any way, or make any claims of FSC certification...or apparently list the FSC acronym in the paper description on your website.

Just to make it clear, your saying if I'm printing a job on Domtar Lynx, I can't tell my customer that the paper is FSC Certified... even though it clearly states that in all their literature and their labels????

 

[cosmo]

its not really the same as trying to use a coca cola logo, FSC is a process of making the paper not an actual brand. I cant see why they wouldnt let anyone say they use FSC paper, its promoting more of that type of paper. Crazy.

 

[Mark]

I think FSC is another "Green" shakedown for money just like global warming

 

[meddington]

Just to make it clear, your saying if I'm printing a job on Domtar Lynx, I can't tell my customer that the paper is FSC Certified... even though it clearly states that in all their literature and their labels????

I'm not clear on this myself, but I don't think so. I believe you can communicate that the paper is FSC certified, and list the description on internal documents as such, but you could not use the logo or use the FSC trademarks for promotion of your services. This apparently includes paper descriptions on a website...at least FSC UK thinks so anyway. Someone knowledgable in trademark law would need to answer this one really. But its my opinion that they are probably within their rights.

 

[Craig]

I would hope they would allow me to state the paper is FSC certified, and I would never think about running an FSC logo on a job. (I personally think it's a scam anyway) It just seems like it's so unclear what you can and can't do. If you are clearly not promoting yourself as "FSC Certified" but are promoting the fact that you use "FSC Certified" paper, what's wrong with that? After all I thought we were suppose to be good boy's and girl's and use sustainable products... I guess we just can't tell anyone. (sounds dirty)

 

[lfelton]

I'm not clear on this myself, but I don't think so. I believe you can communicate that the paper is FSC certified, and list the description on internal documents as such, but you could not use the logo or use the FSC trademarks for promotion of your services. This apparently includes paper descriptions on a website...at least FSC UK thinks so anyway. Someone knowledgable in trademark law would need to answer this one really. But its my opinion that they are probably within their rights.

That may be a common sense approach Meddington (I couldn't possibly comment), however that isn't the case.

Like most people, I'm really not interested in slugging it out over trademark issues. On the other hand, we use about 300 tonnes of paper a year and our customers want to know something about the paper they choose. We had previously tackled this by putting the full description _as supplied by the manufacturer_ in the help for each product page.

We have been told in no uncertain terms that you can't do this. You cannot report the manufacturers description if it includes the FSC acronym or the name spelt out in full. This would obviously apply not just to the web, but any other media. Responses to tenders, or RFQs, or simple written quotations certainly come under "affirmation done in promotional material as to the use of FSC certified paper with commercial purposes or that directly or indirectly bears commercial advantages" to quote the FSC.

How you respond to a direct question is another matter and I've asked the FSC bod for clarification and a form or words to use that is acceptable to them. I'll post it back here when they confirm it.

Meanwhile, we're switching to PEFC. Got to recalibrate 5 presses

 

[RickLee]

Coc

Coc

Yes the stock maybe FSC certified but it remains that way only because of the COC (Chain of Custody)
The paper mill is COC and the paper merchant is COC so the paper they provide is FSC.

once you place that order, being not COC, then the paper loses its FSC status. This is a problem in that if you return the stock the merchant can no longer sell the stock as FSC.

so although you are purchasing a stock listed as FSC you will not be receiving one because of the COC so it is improper for you to say you have access to the FSC stocks listed at you suppliers.

I hope this helps.

 

[Craig]

Yes the stock maybe FSC certified but it remains that way only because of the COC (Chain of Custody)
The paper mill is COC and the paper merchant is COC so the paper they provide is FSC.

once you place that order, being not COC, then the paper loses its FSC status. This is a problem in that if you return the stock the merchant can no longer sell the stock as FSC.

so although you are purchasing a stock listed as FSC you will not be receiving one because of the COC so it is improper for you to say you have access to the FSC stocks listed at you suppliers.

I hope this helps.

This is by no means meant for the poster in regards to his/her intelligence. Do you realize how utterly stupid that sounds!!!!! That's like saying you can only refer to your paper as white if you are white certified. Once they sell that paper to a non white certified printer it can no longer be called white. Come on ... wake up!

Once I buy that case of Domtar Lynx, is it magically no longer manufactured as a sustainable product???? That is the message I am trying to inform my customers. Even though I will NOT be FSC certified, shouldn't I be able to let my customers know we are purchasing sustainable products? Sometimes common sense needs to take over where stupidity left off.

Ifelton, I would refuse to remove the information until the manufacture removes it from the packaging and product information, as long as you are not claiming to be a "Certified" printer. Screw'em!

 

[RickLee]

no need to get so hot under the collar.

If you were certified then you would know the rules that you have play by.

For example; at one time Sappi Hanno Art stock was not FSC and it is now. Even though you may have purchased it today there is no guarantees without the COC that you have received the FSC variant. Even if the mill says they are shipping FSC.

We are not disputing the colour like white. We are disputing the COC to guarantee to the customer that paper if FSC.

I also did not want to mention there are press houses that may tell the customer that they are getting FSC and sub in another stock. FSC audits your purchases to verify the stock was purchased for the job.

I agree that the FSC is a huge money grab. But if you want to use there name you must play by their rules.

 

[meddington]

If you were certified then you would know the rules that you have play by.

Well not necessarily. Even our registrar mucks it up occasionally.

For example; at one time Sappi Hanno Art stock was not FSC and it is now. Even though you may have purchased it today there is no guarantees without the COC that you have received the FSC variant. Even if the mill says they are shipping FSC.

I don't agree with this. If you , being a printer without FSC certification, order FSC certified paper, you will receive FSC stock. After all, you are the mill's end user. The moment it hits your floor, the chain is broken and you can no longer make any claims regarding FSC, but the stock is certified when it left the mill.

 

[oxburger]

This all reminds me of years back when a client wanted a "union bug" on their printed piece. The company I was working for at the time wasn't union, so we printed all the text and a union house printed the cover with the bug on it so that it would appear that the entire job was a union piece.

 

[Craig]

This all reminds me of years back when a client wanted a "union bug" on their printed piece. The company I was working for at the time wasn't union, so we printed all the text and a union house printed the cover with the bug on it so that it would appear that the entire job was a union piece.

As a union shop I agree!

RickLee - I am not implying the COC should remain intact, because as a "non-certified" shop it is not. That being said, the ream wrap on the Domtar Lynx I purchase from my distributor STILL has an FSC logo on it AFTER it is wheeled into my shop. Other than the COC is now broke (just as if it was sent to my customer) what has changed? Is it not still manufactured by the mill the same as if it were wheeled into your "certified" shop? Why can't I tell my customer that the PAPER is manufactured to FSC specifications, but my shop IS NOT?