Fuji Finalproof GRACoL woes

[Munsell]

I thought I'd post here since this forum gets a little more traffic.

I'm in the process of getting a Finalproof we recently acquired to output a GRAcOL proof. I'm about 80% there. My process was to output a proof, read in the P2P with Measure Tool, put that in Curve 2, then adjust the solids/overprints using the drum rotation speed and lamp power. When I got it to an acceptable level, I applied a gray balance curve calculated through Curve 2 in the RIP (nexus). I should add that I am sending 1 bit tiffs to the proofer.

After I applied a gray balance curve, I read in the iT8 target and calculated a device link profile through Profile Maker (not color managing black).

This has gotten me extremely close except for the black. The solid black I'm getting off of the Fuji has a L*a*b* value of 16, 2.26, 5.21. Its a fairly yellow/orange hue. My paper value is 93, .53, .60.

I have contacted Fuji, but cannot get a good answer out of them. When I was having problems with Cyan, they offered a different donor film (FLCJ instead of FLC1).

Does this seem consistent with anyone who has a Finalproof, or has experience with them? Should I color manage the black?

 

[chevalier]

We have one but I'm far from an expert in this area. I have PM'd you the contact information of the technical contact you want to talk to at Fujifilm. He handled our G7 calibration and is among a very select group capable of such a feat with the FinalProof.

The nice thing is if you have your FinalProof in a controlled environment once you set it up the odds of every coming out of calibration are very slim.

 

[jbarrie]

Fuji final proof

Fuji final proof

We have not adjusted our Final proof to G7 standards, but I have been told you do need to swop out your cyan with a Japanese cyan. Hope this helps.

 

[michaelejahn]

here is ONE significant problem ( since you seem to not be color managing the black for some crazy reason )

" My paper value is 93, .53, .60. "

GRACoL would suggest 95 0 - 2

but - the quick and somewhat obvious answer would be "yes, but of course, color manage the black !"

Which version of Profile Maker ?

And why would you think you should not color manage the black ?

 

[Munsell]

Jbarrie - I have swapped out the Cyan. Default cyan is FL-C1. The "GRACoL" cyan is FL-CJ.

Hmm, I've always been told its better not to color manage black, which is the whole point of a Device Link profile vs a regular icc. The simplest reason (right or not), when a pressman puts a loupe to the proof, he is going to freak out that the black is not matching what he is printing. I was also instructed to not color manage black by the guy in our company who is a G7 Professional and has worked with Don Hutchinson for a long time.

As far as paper goes, yea its not perfect, but not that bad. We don't really get to control what we print on, and IP Everest 16 or 18 pt is pretty standard here. That is what I ran on the press to get our Master certification .

 

[J]

I'm in the process of getting a Finalproof we recently acquired to output a GRAcOL proof. I'm about 80% there. My process was to output a proof, read in the P2P with Measure Tool, put that in Curve 2, then adjust the solids/overprints using the drum rotation speed and lamp power. When I got it to an acceptable level, I applied a gray balance curve calculated through Curve 2 in the RIP (nexus). I should add that I am sending 1 bit tiffs to the proofer.

Could you explain how applying curves to your proofer would have any effect on the color you get when sending 1 bit Tiffs? I can understand how lamp power and drum speed would affect how dense the transfer of pigment would be - but I can't see how curves would have any effect.

J

 

[rich apollo]

Hmm, I've always been told its better not to color manage black, which is the whole point of a Device Link profile vs a regular icc. The simplest reason (right or not), when a pressman puts a loupe to the proof, he is going to freak out that the black is not matching what he is printing. I was also instructed to not color manage black by the guy in our company who is a G7 Professional and has worked with Don Hutchinson for a long time.

You want to leave black-only elements alone when color managing items going to press. It's not a matter of ignoring the black channel, but of keeping items that are made up of only black from becoming 4-color black.

Your paper is too dark to achieve GRACoL #1 compliance. You can get to SWOP grade 3, which I would think is more appropriate for 16-18 pt.

You're going to have to color manage the black channel to neutralize it. That brings into question the usefulness of this type of proof.

I don't know much about the FinalProof, but I have the same questions J posed. If you're proofing 1-bits you can't "curve" them. The dots are all solids.

 

[chevalier]

Could you explain how applying curves to your proofer would have any effect on the color you get when sending 1 bit Tiffs? I can understand how lamp power and drum speed would affect how dense the transfer of pigment would be - but I can't see how curves would have any effect.

J

Must have been half asleep when I responded earlier. J is absolutely right. This is not the way to calibrate this. Ours is provided linear data in a FinalProof friendly composite TIFF format from RIP (doesn't matter what RIP as long as PDPro can re-separate it). If you are going to feed 1-Bitt tiff and proof CMYK only then you should send linear data. All of the color tweaking is done through PDPro's calibration function. Ours was G7 qualified by a Fujifilm G7 expert with extensive experience with these devices and this is his method.

 

[Munsell]

As far as the paper goes, I'm not concerned about it. While 93 L* may not be perfect, I'm hitting the rest of the GRACoL gamut on this stock. I think there is a tolerance of +/- 3 DE anyways. I do target SWOP coated 3 when we print on foil board and use a white ink.

I'm not saying applying curves does anything to the solids, I was just explaining my method of calibration. So is that wrong? I see your point on sending some sort of non screened file to the PM System, and letting it do the calibration. Maybe this isn't the optimal way of calibration, but it seems to be working fine. I'd like to clarify that I'm not using curves to effect the solids. Obviously, thats not possible. I'm only using them in the RIP to acheive gray balance. That combined with a device link profile (preserving the black), I am able to hit all of the CMY and overprint values, as well as a great NPD curve and gray balance. I'm basically screening in the RIP, then letting the Fuji merely put what I send it on a proof. My biggest reason for this is so I can use the same screening family the press uses, and control the screen angle and family of white inks when we use them. Right or wrong, our pressmen and press supervisors seem to ask a lot of questions when they see the square dot the Fuji's RIP produces in the midtones.

My calibration method aside, my real question was about the solid black coming out of the Fuji. Like Rich Apollo said, if I color manage black to get it more neutral, it kind of negates the whole purpose of this type of proof. I have called Fuji, and they don't seem to understand what I'm trying to do. They seem to think its my RIP causing the problem, but I told them thats not possible since my black (solid and screened areas) is printing JUST black. If I calibrated through PM System, the black would still be wrong.

 

[Munsell]

Just a bump on this to see if anyone else new has an answer. Maybe I provided too much info on the onset. My biggest problem is the color of the solid black. As in, if I output a sample directly from the Finalproof itself, the L*a*b* values of the solid black are wrong.

1 - is anyone else doing GRACoL with a Finalproof?
2 - how are you verifying GRACoL or G7 colorspace (target type, instrument, software)
3 - how are you color managing your Finalproof
4 - Is the color of your solid black within G7 tolerances?

 

[Stephen Marsh]

Munsel, I don't have experience with FinalProof.

Going from the Kodak Approval, I know that Kodak have different black donor sets, with only one being qualified for use in producing GRACoL and SWOP proofs. Kodak also supply info for producing "out of the box" proofs to meet these industry standards (one can measure colour bars and achieve a pass using certification software against the published L*a*b* targets for say GRACoL).

I have not measured solid blacks using different black donors, so I can only presume that Kodak have different hues for these various blacks, which is why only one donor type is specified for use in making proofs to industry standards.


Hope this helps,

Stephen Marsh