Grayscale Printing

[Bobbie]

Not sure where the trouble lies with this issue - kind of shooting blind at the moment...

We create 4/1 postcards in Photoshop CS2 and then Print them on an IKON CCP650. The problem we're running into is that the IKON sees the grayscale back as color, so we are being charged double for each back printed.

We create the images new as grayscale; then save them as pdf with the color conversion option turned off. I don't know what - if anything - I'm missing that would make the IKON see the image as colored.

I was wondering if any one else has run into this and if they have a fix?

Any help will be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
bk

 

[oxburger]

Re: Grayscale Printing

If I'm reading this right, you're sending them out to a vendor to be printed. If the vendor was worth their salt, they should know that the backs are grayscale and shouldn't be charging you for a color back. I'd threaten them with finding a different vendor unless they charge you accordingly. If the IKON is indeed seeing the back as color for some reason (which I don't know why it would, it sounds like you're building the files right), the vendor should be able to tell you how the files need to be prepped in order to print correctly. If they can't, then they don't know what they're doing and you should probably switch vendors anyway.

 

[GinSu]

Re: Grayscale Printing

I know our antiquated Canon 1000 with a Fiery RIP has settings for forcing blacks to black only. If your vendors IKON should have similar options, they need to turn them on when printing your grayscale side.

Edited by: GinSu on Jul 24, 2008 9:33 AM - - Grammar and spelling fixes.

 

[John Clifford]

Re: Grayscale Printing

First off, if the backs are text heavy, they should NEVER be done in Photoshop. Photoshop is a raster format so you're probably getting type that is 300dpi. A vector program such as Illustrator or InDesign or Quark is MUCH better. Also, often when you're working in photoshop, your background may not be 100% white (0%k) so you'll end up with a screen tint over all of your background.

Now to your actual problem. What kind of file are you sending to the print vendor? A PDF? A .psd photoshop file? A jpeg? Depending on the answer to this question I might be able to tell what went wrong.

 

[buckeye]

Re: Grayscale Printing

> {quote:title=John Clifford wrote:}{quote}
> First off, if the backs are text heavy, they should NEVER be done in Photoshop. Photoshop is a raster format so you're probably getting type that is 300dpi.

Text in photoshop can be kept as vector so long as it's not flattened and is saved as eps, with Include Vector Data checked, or saved as photoshop pdf format.

Bobbie,

Can you open your pdf up in Acrobat and under the Advanced menu go to Output Preview to see if in fact it is made up of 4C? I don't see how it wouldn't be grayscale if your Color Conversion is set to No Conversion in the Output setting when saving your pdf.

Erik

 

[kyle]

Re: Grayscale Printing

Do you have "Profile Inclusion Policy" set to "Include Destination Profile," and "Embed Color Profile..." checked in the first dialog box? If so, it is possible that your printer is performing color management and ending up with a Lab/CMYK result internally. The PDF would still be a grayscale image, tagged with a grayscale profile, but would appear as though it were CMYK builds in the Acrobat output preview. Could you create a small example PDF (performing exactly the same procedures as you would with the problem PDF's) and upload it here?

 

[buckeye]

Re: Grayscale Printing

Kyle,

Thanks for the clarification. I see now how it could happen. I did what you said with embedding the profile in the first dialog box and setting the "Profile Inclusion Policy" to "Include Destination Profile" and sure enough my grayscale file showed up as 4c in Acrobat's output preview.

Erik

 

[John Clifford]

Re: Grayscale Printing

Erik,

I hope that Dov or Leonard will chime in if I've got it wrong, but I believe that saving vectors only saves them for editing when you reopening in Photoshop. If you create a PDF or print, the text gets rasterized at the resolution set for resolution in the preferences. Thus my admonition that you're still going to get 300 dpi. When you export to PDF it also flattens and rasterizes Photoshop vectors.

Again, Dov or Leonard, PLEASE chime in if I've got it wrong.

Edited by: John Clifford on Jul 24, 2008 3:15 PM

 

[kyle]

Re: Grayscale Printing

The result you get is actually a sort of hybrid between raster and vector. For example, if you had a 1 inch square 100 ppi image, and an editable vector text layer on top, when you save as a PDF, you will get two images that are 100 x 100 pixels. The bottom image will be whatever your background layer was, and the top image will have a rectangle somewhat larger than the text in the same color as the text. That top image will have a vector mask applied to it that cuts out the top image in the shape of the text. Therefore, even if the image is 100 ppi, the edges will be sharp and will render at device resolution (I believe this is true even when the text is anti-aliased in Photoshop). The downsides are that trapping will probably not occur down-stream, and the file size will be larger than if the type were truly vector (although with compression this is likely to be a negligible difference unless the type is not opaque or has a blending mode other than normal).

 

[Dov Isaacs]

Re: Grayscale Printing


John,

Chiming in! B-)

If you create +shape layers+ or +text layers+ in a Photoshop file, if you +save as PDF+ and if you haven't done something unfortunate such as flattening the layers prior to the save operation, the +shape layers+ translate into vector artwork in the resultant PDF file and the +text layers+ translate into text rendered via fonts with the fonts actually embedded in the resultant PDF file.

Thus, if you have a relatively low resolution Photoshop file with raster data with jaggies, although that raster data may look wretched when the resultant PDF file is viewed or printed at high resolution or magnification, the content on shape layers and/or text layers will render smoothly at device resolution.

For +save as EPS+ or print to a PostScript device, there is an option for preserving vector data. What that does is preserve the shape layers as vector data in the generated PostScript and converts the text to outlined polygon vector data in the generated PostScript.

In other words, maintaining live vector and text layers in Photoshop yields higher quality PDF output (for both viewing and print) than if you flatten same or if you save to TIFF or a similar raster-only format.

Does that answer your question!

- Dov

 

[buckeye]

Re: Grayscale Printing

John,

Here is a photoshop grayscale image that is 36 dpi with a text layer. Viewing it in photoshop is next to impossible but if you open it up in Acrobat you can view it at 6400% and see that it is truly still vector.

Also, here is a prior link discussing photoshop pdf format.

http://printplanet.com/discuss/thread.jspa?messageID=15259&#15259

Erik

Edited by: Erik on Jul 25, 2008 9:54 AM

 

[John Clifford]

Re: Grayscale Printing

Thanks Dov and Erik.

I'm very happy to be corrected on this. I'm guessing that I missed an update somewhere along the line. I know that for years I had been asking for this as when I worked in the textbook world we were always looking for a better workflow to combine vector and raster data other than moving everything to Illustrator for a couple of leader lines or text labels.

So, I stand corrected.

Thanks again,

 

[buckeye]

Re: Grayscale Printing

Bonnie,

Hope we didn't get too far off topic regarding grayscale printing, but did you get your problem figured out or won't you know until you send another file to your vendor?

Erik

 

[rbailleu]

Re: Grayscale Printing

which rip are you using. if it is efi with comand workstation. have you tried printing the 2 files separately and then combining them in command workstation.