Heidelberg Axis Control

[prepressguru]

We are currently investigating this press control module. Would like to have some feed back from the trenches on pro's and con's. Our hope is to further reduce make ready's and increase our colour quality and consistency.


Thanks

 

[arfamoe]

Re: Heidelberg Axis Control

We have the Axis control and once our press people had learnt how to use it and our pre-press had figured out the consistant placement of the colour bar they havnt looked back, they love using this equipment. If you have the extra money investigate the Heidelberg 'Image Control' equipment, no need for a colour bar it measures and controls the image.

 

[Retroman]

Re: Heidelberg Axis Control

Check out the LithoTel ColorLinx system before committing to Axis control. <www.lithotel.ca> It comes with options that include ink key presetting, closed loop color control using either the Techkon SpectroDrive scanner or the X-Rite IntelliTrax; and it has a pre press interface that provides real time feed back to CTP and proofing.

The X-Rite unit has a dual track and read head to accommodate for misaligned or mis positioned color bars. The system is very competitively priced.

The Pitman Company sell these systems in the United States.

 

[prepressguru]

Re: Heidelberg Axis Control

Thanks for the info, so far the info we have gathered has been very positive. We are a complete HD shop and it makes sense to keep it this way.


Thanks

 

[prepressguru]

Re: Heidelberg Axis Control

Hi thanks for the alternative info. We are in Canada and it looks like this is a Canadian product. We'll have to contact them. The only concern I see is this looks a little less sophisticated then HD's and not sure how tight it integrates with the print consoles.

Thanks

 

[Lee Hutchinson]

Re: Heidelberg Axis Control

We installed AXIS control 6 months ago and it is awesome. We looked at the Intellitrak option which was massively cheaper and is a real option if you have an older press without CP2000 but wasn't for us as our SM102 is only 7 years old. We also took the press reporting option which gives you a report on every measurement that your press crew takes, splits make ready and good sheets data. Great for driving down make ready and also QA to be able to give data in form of a report is a real step forward to prove consistency through the run. Big learning curve for the minders but once they get their heads round it they love it.

Pretty neat things such as approve colour on small key area and then copy that across all ink keys (saves customer on press pass pissing around trying to get whole sheet approved), run press to house weights (we target ISO 12467-2) if customer wants to up weights etc then do this, when they are happy set this as pass sheet all measurements throughout the run then calibrate to pass sheet not house standard.

Image control obviously the creme de la creme but costs a small fortune.

One comment if you have very light coverage of a particular colour eg a 100% Y small logo for example then AXIS control really struggles to control it it basically puts the ink balance up and down all over the place so you are best off measuring manually with densy.

Hope this helps.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Re: Heidelberg Axis Control

Think of the Anicolor press. It is advertised as a press that has no mechanical or starvation ghosting, consistent density across the press, prints consistency anywhere on the sheet and it comes up to colour in a few sheets. It basically does what it says. I don't think this is the right press for the future but it does show where the potential of press design can go.

With such a press, would one think of having an expensive HAC system or any other closed loop colour control system (on or off line)? Probably not because it would not be needed.

In the printing industry, one pays twice for performance. Once for the press and then again for an expensive technology such as closed loop colour control systems, to compensate for the weaknesses of functional design of the press.

These expensive technologies are wonderful works of engineering but they also complicate an operation that would be much simpler if the press technology worked properly in the first place.

You are probably committed to having some similar technology and I hope what ever you end up with, works well for you.

 

[prepressguru]

Hi Lee

Thanks for the feedback. So far things are looking positive.

We do have the CP2000 on 1 press not sure on the other one. We'll keep your experiences in mind when we see a demo of the unit.

Thanks

We installed AXIS control 6 months ago and it is awesome. We looked at the Intellitrak option which was massively cheaper and is a real option if you have an older press without CP2000 but wasn't for us as our SM102 is only 7 years old. We also took the press reporting option which gives you a report on every measurement that your press crew takes, splits make ready and good sheets data. Great for driving down make ready and also QA to be able to give data in form of a report is a real step forward to prove consistency through the run. Big learning curve for the minders but once they get their heads round it they love it.

Pretty neat things such as approve colour on small key area and then copy that across all ink keys (saves customer on press pass pissing around trying to get whole sheet approved), run press to house weights (we target ISO 12467-2) if customer wants to up weights etc then do this, when they are happy set this as pass sheet all measurements throughout the run then calibrate to pass sheet not house standard.

Image control obviously the creme de la creme but costs a small fortune.

One comment if you have very light coverage of a particular colour eg a 100% Y small logo for example then AXIS control really struggles to control it it basically puts the ink balance up and down all over the place so you are best off measuring manually with densy.

Hope this helps.

 

[prepressguru]

I just had a discussion with one of the pressman to see how they run jobs. They normally do 150 sheets to bring colour up. We already send down CIP data and our CTP registration is very good. I'm just curious how much less makeready we will see? FYI we are a short run shop.

Thanks

 

[jpsweeney]

Be sure to take a look at Digital Information gear - presetting and closed-loop systems -
distributed in the North America by JSA - www.jsa-inc.com

They showed a very inexpensive transport for the i-one at DRUPA... for speed, go with IntelliTrax
They will at Graph Expo... which is sneaking up on us.

 

[jpsweeney]

Be sure to take a look at Digital Information gear - presetting and closed-loop systems -
distributed in the North America by JSA - www.jsa-inc.com

They showed a very inexpensive transport for the i-one at DRUPA... for speed, go with IntelliTrax
They will at Graph Expo... which is sneaking up on us.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

I just had a discussion with one of the pressman to see how they run jobs. They normally do 150 sheets to bring colour up. We already send down CIP data and our CTP registration is very good. I'm just curious how much less makeready we will see? FYI we are a short run shop.

Thanks

Since you already have ink key presetting, you might not see much improvement in makeready. Ink key presetting is the biggest advantage in makeready even if the ink key presetting calculations are not great. Doing it manually is so much more difficult.

There are differences in close loop colour control. An inline system not only measured density values but also measures trends. Knowing the trend is then an internal value that is used to make the ink key adjustment so that the density will have a better chance of hitting the desired target. Offline closed loop control inherently does not use trends since the samples are far apart. The problem then is if you have a value that is 0.04 density points away from the target value, how much do you have the closed loop control adjust. Since it does not know if the trend is towards the target or away, it really does not have all the info it would need to be very quick.

Presses are not precise at feeding ink into the roller trains and this results in conditions that affect getting to colour quickly. One can think of printing as a steady state problem. The goal is to get to the steady state condition that results in printing at the target values. If you are not at the desired steady state condition, you have to go through a transient to get to the desired steady state condition. Basically a steady state condition on a press means that the amount of ink going into the roller train equals the amount being printed and that the amount of ink stored on the rollers is not changing. On a press, going through a transient requires running paper and printing ink. Transients are bad and cause waste. The holy grail is to avoid transients.

Transients are caused all the time and this is mainly due to the lack of positive ink feed. If one stops a press and lets it sit for a while, it can start up with different conditions from the ones just before it stopped and this will result in transients until the steady state conditions is regained. Sometimes it will need further ink adjustments.

If an operator or offline system makes an ink key move, that may result in a transient that ends up in a steady state condition that is not the desired one. Then another adjustment and transient is required. These adjustments by the operator or offline system are just guesses.

The ideal system is not closed loop at all. If one had a properly calculated ink key presetting data, and the press was capable of feeding ink in a positive and predictable way, and the press printed consistently all over the sheet, there would be no need for further adjustment of ink controls. The press would start and directly converge on the desired conditions. Probably in about 50 sheets.

I believe the HAC system uses colorimetric values and can read locations within the print. Density values are adjusted to get to the desired colorimetric values in selected parts of the image. It can not control the whole image. Impressive technology but one should understand why this is done. One reason is that the printing of the image is not predictable at all locations on the sheet. This is related to weaknesses in the roller train design.

 

[Lee Hutchinson]

From my experience what the press crew tell you and the reality of the make ready times or sheets used are totally different. If you are up to colour and in fit in 150 sheets to match to colour approved proof then I would doubt if you will see any make ready improvement as that already sounds really good. If you do medium to long runs you will see a massive difference in your consistency through the run, if you take press reporting you will also have evidence for you press room manager or client to prove how you ran the job.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

If you do medium to long runs you will see a massive difference in your consistency through the run, .

Lee, I totally agree that closed loop control works very well for consistency during the run. I had some experience with one system on a web press in the early 90's. We thought of it as cruise control.

For a sheetfed press it is a bit different if the unit is off line but I am sure it helps.

Two potential methods for improving consistency are the closed loop colour control systems or the positive ink feed method. Goss has a positive ink feed method for their newspaper presses and their marketing uses the phrase "Set and forget". Both of these systems are expensive.

Just as a comparison, the fundamental problem of density consistency is directly related to the consistency of the ink feed rate. Goss gets around this by feeding the ink with positive displacement pumps in their DigiRail technology.

There is a potential for a very low cost solution to this problem. My Ink Transfer Blade or ITB addresses the main source of the inconsistent ink feed problem in offset presses which have ductor rollers. The ink keys might be quite consistent in metering ink but the ductor roller is very inconsistent in transferring ink into the roller train and the rate of ink transfer is affected by changes in water settings, press speed and temperature. The ITB attacks the problem caused by the ductor roller and provides a consistent ink transfer that is independent of the those variables mentioned above.

The ITB technology on a press would consist of a special blade and a roller. Not very complicated and therefore would not be very expensive. It is totally mechanical. The ITB is not a product but is patented in the US and Canada and prototypes have been tested on some presses.

Some advantage of having a mechanical method which corrects the fundamental problem instead of the costly closed loop systems is that the closed loop systems only respond to errors caused by disturbances and then make a correction while the mechanical solution prevents disturbances from causing errors. Quite a different approach.

My point here is that there are many things that can be done, that are not so expensive and potentially can be applied to legacy presses to significantly improve performance. One should not assume that high tech and costlier technologies will always provide the best practical performance.

 

[prepressguru]

Hi Erik

Thanks for the follow up /comparison info. It's taken me awhile to digest but very helpful.

Lee, I totally agree that closed loop control works very well for consistency during the run. I had some experience with one system on a web press in the early 90's. We thought of it as cruise control.

For a sheetfed press it is a bit different if the unit is off line but I am sure it helps.

Two potential methods for improving consistency are the closed loop colour control systems or the positive ink feed method. Goss has a positive ink feed method for their newspaper presses and their marketing uses the phrase "Set and forget". Both of these systems are expensive.

Just as a comparison, the fundamental problem of density consistency is directly related to the consistency of the ink feed rate. Goss gets around this by feeding the ink with positive displacement pumps in their DigiRail technology.

There is a potential for a very low cost solution to this problem. My Ink Transfer Blade or ITB addresses the main source of the inconsistent ink feed problem in offset presses which have ductor rollers. The ink keys might be quite consistent in metering ink but the ductor roller is very inconsistent in transferring ink into the roller train and the rate of ink transfer is affected by changes in water settings, press speed and temperature. The ITB attacks the problem caused by the ductor roller and provides a consistent ink transfer that is independent of the those variables mentioned above.

The ITB technology on a press would consist of a special blade and a roller. Not very complicated and therefore would not be very expensive. It is totally mechanical. The ITB is not a product but is patented in the US and Canada and prototypes have been tested on some presses.

Some advantage of having a mechanical method which corrects the fundamental problem instead of the costly closed loop systems is that the closed loop systems only respond to errors caused by disturbances and then make a correction while the mechanical solution prevents disturbances from causing errors. Quite a different approach.

My point here is that there are many things that can be done, that are not so expensive and potentially can be applied to legacy presses to significantly improve performance. One should not assume that high tech and costlier technologies will always provide the best practical performance.

 

[prepressguru]

Lee thanks for the feedback. It was getting the same feeling when the pressman told me they were up to colour in 150 sheets. So I to am doubting the gains in makeready. I will need to look into the press reporting.

 

[prepressguru]

image control

image control

Hi All

Finally had a chance to visit Heidelberg and see Image control in action. Very nice system. We may not benefit from make ready but keeping the colour consistent will be great. The system comes with the press reporting and it does a great job of logging how the job was run and you have the option of printing out the report to keep with the job. As well if you invest into the other prepress tools you gain the "closed loop" to control and calibrate proofs. You basically could run without needing proofs at press.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hi All
As well if you invest into the other prepress tools you gain the "closed loop" to control and calibrate proofs. You basically could run without needing proofs at press.

Hi prepressguru,

I am sure the technology looks impressive. A comment about what you say about a "closed loop" to control proofs. I take this to mean some method that is meant to refine the profile of the press. There is a bit of a problem with this thought.

A press with a given ink and paper combination does not have a specific profile that can be refined. The reason for this is very much related to the design of the press. In the case of the Anicolor press, there is a much better potential for having a specific profile because of the in register single form roller which in principle, always inks the plate the same at all locations. But on conventional presses, different parts of the image print differently due to timing of the ink charge due to the ductor roller, variations in ink film applied to the plate due to the form rollers inking the image itself and not fully being reinked by the roller train. The point is that the printing of an image on conventional presses is affected by the image itself. Printing a test form does not define how the press will print an image.

Maybe the extra cost of the "closed loop" technology for fine tuning prepress will be helpful but maybe it will not. It is not a certainty. I would suggest that proofs at the press would still be needed as insurance just in case things don't work out as planned.

As for the topic of consistency on press, that can be done at a much lower cost, but unfortunately there is no product available for that existing technology.

It seems to me that you are already sold on the Heidelberg Axis Control. If you get it, let us know how it really works for you.

 

[prepressguru]

Hi Erik

Thanks for your comments. Yes we purchased image control. Of course we would not run without a signed off proof the insurance is always needed.

The closed loop tools allows us to tweek our profile or find out if proof or press has moved a little from our initial targets. Then allows us to but it back on target. Or even adjust the target. Of course again we wouldn't make major changes to this.

As for consistency this is part of what image control does. You run to your target and pull sheets through the run and it compares to your target sheet and adjust accordingly. Of course its just a tool to help the pressman who has find say. All of this info is recorded and can be printed out for reference if there is a quality concern from the client. The data can also be used on the next job which might be part of a series of piece so they all run the same way.


Thanks