Heidleberg Quickmaster 46-2 has too much water on plate in the second unit

[kburton]

Hoping someone can help here, as of 2 days ago we have been printing fine on this press but now the second unit seems to be flooding the plate with 2 much water. Here is what we have done so far: We have replace and reset all the rollers in the water unit, we also have a second parts machine where we took the water unit and put it in the newer machine and it did the same thing. We replace the air pistons thinking they were not put the rollers in proper position and this didn't change anything. We have tried having just a.5mm strip on the water form to the plate and it still had too much water. We have pulled all rollers out and cleaned with pumas and then did a water/vinegar wash still same problem. We are using the same fountain solution in the first unit and it is working fine so we know that is not it. We even swapped the inks and that didn't change anything.

We are at a complete lose and so is our tech, if anyone has any other suggestions beside gasoline and a match it would be very appreciated.

 

[Cornishpastythighs]

Is the dampening system on this press 'self regulating' I should think there is some form of brake or clutch on one or two of the dampener components that may have malfunctioned and is running faster than it should flooding the plate and rollers with fountain solution.

 

[realaqu]

Hoping someone can help here, as of 2 days ago we have been printing fine on this press but now the second unit seems to be flooding the plate with 2 much water. Here is what we have done so far: We have replace and reset all the rollers in the water unit, we also have a second parts machine where we took the water unit and put it in the newer machine and it did the same thing. We replace the air pistons thinking they were not put the rollers in proper position and this didn't change anything. We have tried having just a.5mm strip on the water form to the plate and it still had too much water. We have pulled all rollers out and cleaned with pumas and then did a water/vinegar wash still same problem. We are using the same fountain solution in the first unit and it is working fine so we know that is not it. We even swapped the inks and that didn't change anything.

We are at a complete lose and so is our tech, if anyone has any other suggestions beside gasoline and a match it would be very appreciated.

didi you get your replacement rollers from bottcher? btw, the water form to plate is 3.5mm at position 6, 5mm is too much

 

[kburton]

didi you get your replacement rollers from bottcher? btw, the water form to plate is 3.5mm at position 6, 5mm is too much

We have a local company that has been recovering our rollers for years and the strip is at 3.5mm, I was just stating that we have tried to go from .5mm to 3.5mm with no changes.


"Is the dampening system on this press 'self regulating' I should think there is some form of brake or clutch on one or two of the dampener components that may have malfunctioned and is running faster than it should flooding the plate and rollers with fountain solution."

As far as I know there is no brake or clutch on this water system.

 

[realaqu]

We have a local company that has been recovering our rollers for years and the strip is at 3.5mm, I was just stating that we have tried to go from .5mm to 3.5mm with no changes.


"Is the dampening system on this press 'self regulating' I should think there is some form of brake or clutch on one or two of the dampener components that may have malfunctioned and is running faster than it should flooding the plate and rollers with fountain solution."

As far as I know there is no brake or clutch on this water system.

Please try to get one from buttcher, all I can think is the metering roller's problem

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hoping someone can help here, as of 2 days ago we have been printing fine on this press but now the second unit seems to be flooding the plate with 2 much water. Here is what we have done so far: We have replace and reset all the rollers in the water unit, we also have a second parts machine where we took the water unit and put it in the newer machine and it did the same thing. We replace the air pistons thinking they were not put the rollers in proper position and this didn't change anything. We have tried having just a.5mm strip on the water form to the plate and it still had too much water. We have pulled all rollers out and cleaned with pumas and then did a water/vinegar wash still same problem. We are using the same fountain solution in the first unit and it is working fine so we know that is not it. We even swapped the inks and that didn't change anything.

We are at a complete lose and so is our tech, if anyone has any other suggestions beside gasoline and a match it would be very appreciated.

Hi. I was just looking at a diagram of the 46-2 roller train. I wanted to confirm to myself that it was a common blanket press. That arrangement might cause extra water from the first print unit to go to the second via the blanket. Try not printing with the first unit and see if the second unit still gets too much water.

I also noticed from the diagram something that surprised me. I had not noticed it before. In that diagram, the water feed to the plate is applied after the ink is applied to the plate. In just about every other press roller train I have seen, it is almost always water first and then ink to the plate. It is also possible that this diagram is wrong.


So if this the arrangement you have, maybe that is making it harder to solve. I don't know, just an observation.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Erik,

The diagram in the "Heidelberg - Profi Tip Booklet" of the Quickmaster QM 46-2 IS the wrong way round (Gear Side View)

All Sheet-fed Presses the paper path runs Right to Left, remember that most Human Beings are Right Handed !

Dampening is "Water first"


But most of the Web Offset Presses, run of paper is left to right


Regards, Alois

 

[kburton]

Hi. I was just looking at a diagram of the 46-2 roller train. I wanted to confirm to myself that it was a common blanket press. That arrangement might cause extra water from the first print unit to go to the second via the blanket. Try not printing with the first unit and see if the second unit still gets too much water..

We have tried with just the 1 unit and still had to much water going to the plate. We ended up replacing all ink and water rollers in that unit, it has helped but we still notice that the plate when running, has a sheen to it and is not dull like the first unit. We will keep playing with this unit until we can get it right.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hello Erik,

The diagram in the "Heidelberg - Profi Tip Booklet" of the Quickmaster QM 46-2 IS the wrong way round (Gear Side View)

All Sheet-fed Presses the paper path runs Right to Left, remember that most Human Beings are Right Handed !

Dampening is "Water first"


But most of the Web Offset Presses, run of paper is left to right


Regards, Alois

Alois, I was using the arrow on the blanket cylinder for the direction as a reference. Plus I misread the diagram. Both units have the same order. I tried to post the image but was not successful the first time. I shall try again.


Success. This was the first time I have provided an image or attachment in a post. That makes my day.

Big surprise. Alois, I hope you can see from the image, there is confusion on the issue. It turns out that in this Heidelberg PDF, they got the rotation of the Blanket cylinder wrong. It is backwards. The arrow is in the wrong direction.

All is well again. Water first then ink to the plate.

The image is on page 17.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Erik,



Yes....some confusion !


I will post some PDFs one from my copy of Profi Tip - Issue 1/ 2007 edition also one more from Heidelberg

Just bear with me ..... I need to load the scanning software into my new computer.

Windows 10 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello Erik and fellow Lithographers,

Part 2 a PDF also JPG re QM 46 - 2



Regards, Alois

View attachment QM 46 - 2 002.pdf

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Hello Erik and fellow Lithographers,

Part 2 a PDF also JPG re QM 46 - 2



Regards, Alois

Thanks for your diagram. Easier to see for everyone than my posting of the whole PDF.

Your diagram still shows that the plate is inked first before it is applied with fountain solution. I think they got the arrow direction wrong for the blanket cylinder rotation. Can anyone confirm what is the correct direction?

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Erik,

Look at the QM 46 - 2 PDF same post, re Rotation of Blanket Cylinder

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello kburton, esq.


Now.......should we get back to your problem,


Questions: 1) Are you using Polyester Plates ?

2) Is the Pan Roller driven with a variable speed motor - how are you controlling how much

F.S. is fed into the dampening system ???


Regards, Alois

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Erik,

Look at the QM 46 - 2 PDF same post, re Rotation of Blanket Cylinder

Yes, the rotation of the blanket cylinder is counter clockwise and therefore the rotation of both plate cylinders must be clockwise and that means that the ink form rollers are inking the plate before the water is applied on both units. I think the arrow on the diagram for the rotation of the blanket cylinder was a mistake. It looks that way to me.

 

[aqazi81]

Just to confirm the cylinder rotation for all members here,

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Erik, ERIK !


I suggest you LOOK again at the PDF........ On the right above the feeder IS Print Unit 1 --- the rotation of the plate Cylinder is anti- clockwise YES ?

then look at the roller train diagram, you will see the Dampening System Highlighted in CYAN


AGAIN - all Offset Lithographic Printing Presses use Water First System.


Regards, Alois

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Hello aqazi81



Correction, for some reason Heidelberg have numbered them wrong ....... the Feeder is on the right so is Print Unit 1 moving to the left is Print Unit 2


The convention regarding Printing Units....... they are always numbered from the feeder - Unit 1


Regards, Alois

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Just to confirm the cylinder rotation for all members here,

Hi Asif, yes your diagram has the correct rotation. For some reason, Heidelberg made a mistake on the other diagram with the rotation direction of the blanket cylinder. Nothing to do with press orientation. When such simple issues are such a problem to see, it is understandable that more complicated issues are even more difficult to grasp. Thanks for your proper diagram. It confirms the correct rotation of the plate cylinder with respect to the inking and dampening rollers.

 

[Alois Senefelder]

Erik,

This sub-topic is getting "Silly" enough is enough - the end.


Regards, Alois