How to better dial in CIP3 data for KBA 106

[MassPrepressGuy]

I have a question about CIP3 data and how a KBA 106 interprets the data to properly set the ink keys. We are noticing that when CIP data is loaded into the press, the pressman sometimes take a little longer to dial in the ink key settings from where it was initially set. I want to know if there is a way either on the prepress interface (CIP3 Link X) to get the CIP data closer to where it needs to be, or, are there setting on the KBA console that can be changed to get the CIP data to a better starting point. Would this be a default "characteristic curve" or "water-ink" curve at the press?

Thanks!

 

[johnny_jay]

Does the press have learning? Our Manroland web and Komori Webs and sheet fed learn over time to compensate for this.

 

[MassPrepressGuy]

Does the press have learning? Our Manroland web and Komori Webs and sheet fed learn over time to compensate for this.

I'm not sure yet. I'm still investigating to see what functionalities are available at the press interface. Trying to find the operator manual. It's a KBA Rapida 106 sheet-fed with an Ergotronic console (circa 2014??)

 

[prwhite]

Have you tried Koenig & Bauer support?

Service Select: Remote maintenance support | us.koenig-bauer.com

us.koenig-bauer.com

 

[MassPrepressGuy]

Also like to add that our CIP file is created from an unscreened PDF using an Esko CIP imaging ticket. That file is then sent over to the KBA PrintLink software in our Prepress department. The press can then pull that file into press console when it’s needed. Is there any adjustment to make on the prepress end to give the press better ink key settings? Or, are all adjustments to the CIP made at the press?

 

[Dario]

I work in prepress too, with the same software and press as you...
Our operators usually modify their own ink keys values straight on their press; then they can save the values for the next reprint.
As far as I know, if you want to modify CIP3s from Esko, you should ask Esko. However,
Third-party software exists to modify CIP3: Excourse PressPerCent Information
Personally, however, I would not advise you to embark on such a quest: press men tend to exploit prepress operators a little too much for my taste.

 

[MassPrepressGuy]

I work in prepress too, with the same software and press as you...
Our operators usually modify their own ink keys values straight on their press; then they can save the values for the next reprint.
As far as I know, if you want to modify CIP3s from Esko, you should ask Esko. However,
Third-party software exists to modify CIP3: Excourse PressPerCent Information
Personally, however, I would not advise you to embark on such a quest: press men tend to exploit prepress operators a little too much for my taste.

Dario, thanks for the input. We are putting a procedure in place now to have the pressmen save ink key settings for future jobs. This only makes sense for direct repeat jobs, however, we do run a lot of gangs as well. I've already reached out to Esko for advice; basically the PDF gets converted to a PPF as a raw unscreened file. All my research is suggesting the pressmen have to be "pressmen" and do their jobs...but they usually have that one finger that stills points to prepress LOL! Also, there has to be newer software out there that helps dial in the CIP better...just another investment.

 

[rcreveli]

When was the press last "Fingerprinted" at my last sheetfed shop we had a curve for each press that was applied when the plates were made. I believe our ink manufacture came in and worked with Kodak to get the curves into Prinergy.

 

[MassPrepressGuy]

When was the press last "Fingerprinted" at my last sheetfed shop we had a curve for each press that was applied when the plates were made. I believe our ink manufacture came in and worked with Kodak to get the curves into Prinergy.

We had all new fingerprints done last year. We apply curves to each (tif file) plate. Should the CIP data at the press interface be adjusted to compensate for new curves? As I said before, the CIP data that prepress send down is RAW unscreened files (they do not include plate curves). That is how Esko tells us to do it. Since we last did fingerprints, I'm wondering if the KBA 106 needs to "learn" and make adjustments to the CIP when they receive it.

Thanks

 

[Dario]

Should the CIP data at the press interface be adjusted to compensate for new curves? As I said before, the CIP data that prepress send down is RAW unscreened files (they do not include plate curves). That is how Esko tells us to do it.

...I'm quite sure our cip3 files have curves applied (just as tif files for ctp plates)

 

[MassPrepressGuy]

...I'm quite sure our cip3 files have curves applied (just as tif files for ctp plates)

Dario, at what stage are you apply curves to the cip3 files? Isn’t your file unscreened coming the imaging ticket?

 

[MacTwidget]

At my last shop we were running an app called "Prepress Interface", albeit a very old edition. You could define curves and apply them to the outgoing CIP3 files. You could even send to different presses independently with their own curve set..

 

[Magnus59]

At my last shop we were running an app called "Prepress Interface", albeit a very old edition. You could define curves and apply them to the outgoing CIP3 files. You could even send to different presses independently with tier own curve set..

Heidelberg Prepress Interface accepts the raw CIP3 files as input, the characteristic curves are applied and the Heidelberg proprietary files are output from Prepress Interface for the press. Curves are not applied to the CIP3 input files.

 

[MassPrepressGuy]

Heidelberg Prepress Interface accepts the raw CIP3 files as input, the characteristic curves are applied and the Heidelberg proprietary files are output from Prepress Interface for the press. Curves are not applied to the CIP3 input files.

Just what exactly is a characteristic curve? Is it the same as a dot gain curve or is it something else? What is the criteria for a characteristic curve?

 

[Magnus59]

Just what exactly is a characteristic curve? Is it the same as a dot gain curve or is it something else? What is the criteria for a characteristic curve?

It's a curve which adjusts the raw data to match the characteristics of the press, inks and substrate

 

[MassPrepressGuy]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'm starting to understand the way the systems work. We definitely do not have a closed loop system for the KBA 106. The press is equipped with a Ergotronic ColorControl system, which reads the sheet and offers corrections. My next step is figuring out if there any default settings that need to be adjusted on the either the Ergotronic (at press) or CipLink X prepress software to make the cip data reflect the current print conditions (target SID, etc). I believe the press could be retrofitted with the Logotronic closed loop system, but i'm sure it's pricey.

 

[Dario]

Dario, at what stage are you apply curves to the cip3 files? Isn’t your file unscreened coming the imaging ticket?

sorry, now I checked and saw that there is a separate ticket that creates the cip3 and that it is separate from the ticket that creates the tif

 

[turbotom1052]

Have you or your pressman noticed a trend as to the inaccuracy of the CIP data? Do they have to consistently add or take away ink. Is it the same addition or subtraction on both coated and uncoated stocks? Are the inaccuracies more prominent in the morning after the initial daily inkup, or are they even present as the workday progresses and they switch from form to form? I would suggest you have the press crew start logging this information in an attempt to try and pinpoint trends.

 

[SheetSqueezer]

I think the biggest problem with this thread might be in the department that’s asking the question. Since PrePress has nothing to do with adjustment of CIP files (it’s100% press-side) you may have the wrong person wondering how to fix any issues there might be with the conversions.

Hopefully the press operator understands this and is willing/knows what to do to correct it.

 

[MacTwidget]

I think the biggest problem with this thread might be in the department that’s asking the question. Since PrePress has nothing to do with adjustment of CIP files (it’s100% press-side) you may have the wrong person wondering how to fix any issues there might be with the conversions.

Hopefully the press operator understands this and is willing/knows what to do to correct it.

I respectfully disagree. Prepress is just as responsible for accurate CIP3 data as they are for accurate proofs and plates.
The data being generated can (and) should be adjusted by prepress as all the CIP3 drivers I know of allow adjustments on the front end.