Igen 110 vs Nexpress 2500

[Jorge Pease]

We have an Indigo 5500 and need to add a machine with a larger format - The 14.33 x 26 and 14 x 26 of the Igen and Kodak (just announced) respectively would allow us to gang up to three legal sized pages. That is a huge savings as far as clicks are concerned.

I'm in the final stages of making a decision. I don't have any experience with Xerox and about 5 years with Kodak. Both machines cost about the same, and click charges are about the same.

The iGen seems to be a more polished product from the standpoint that it comes with paper supplies and stackers that accommodate the larger papers, the Kodak will probably put this together by the time they release the upgrade.

As far as quality is concerned, they both look great. I Would like to hear from somebody who has worked both machines. What is your feeling on uptime, xerox service and anything else that comes to mind which distinguishes one machine over the other.

Thanks

 

[X33]

where are you located? US?

Service will be key. Get some references from each vendor, local if possible. Also important to know, how much of the maintenance you can do by yourself. I'd assume you are looking at the iGen4 EXP, it has some key differentiators in terms of uptime. Some maintenance procedures are automated by the machine. I'm sure your Xerox has discussed that already.

you may also want to keep in mind future growth. How much can you grow with each vendor? Not just in terms of machines, but in regards to business development and parallel technologies.

 

[Jorge Pease]

We are located in Miami Fl. This is the first I have heard of EXP. I have been told we should expect 98% uptime.

 

[geoman]

iGen4 EXP:

Best Digital Color Press Get Better with Launch of Xerox iGen4 EXP / Xerox Newsroom

 

[Jorge Pease]

Can somebody explain EXP

These presses are really so close on paper, tough to make a decision without having worked on them

 

[Josh]

Hi Jorge,

We've been having a bit of a look into this as well...

With regard to being able to gang up 3 pages and save on clicks... the iGen EXP has a separate pricing plan for the larger sized sheet, so there may not be such a saving.

I know the igens have always been quite fussy on environment (air conditioned room) and paper stocks (xerox stock only) whereas the Nexpress has internal AC and has a much larger range of papers available, including supporting offset stocks.

 

[Jorge Pease]

Oh okay,

They put it to me as Meter 4 + ... Kodak does not charge extra for the larger size.

Yeah, I really hate it when a tech comes out and says the paper must be the problem however I did pose that question and Xerox has offered to put in writing that we can use whatever stock is certified.

I checked with Mac papers and they say the lists for Kodak and Xerox are large and equal so I don't believe that is an issue.

However as to the 26" length, I think your right about it not making sense unless you are ordering 10 skids of paper at a time and can get it sheeted to spec straight from the mill.

You can't efficiently cut down a master sheet so unless you want to spend an extra 100K for a roll feed then the 26" option (at this time) doesn't really save you any money at all.

I love Kodak's clear coat but the first time I get a full bleed legal size sheet to print I would regret not having picked a larger format so Im leaning toward the Xerox and just using 14.33 x 22.5" paper.

 

[pschill2]

I want to let you know, I work for Kodak – so my commentary may be somewhat subjective, but wanted to give you some additional things to think about.

With the NexPress press, you’ll have the ability to apply clear coat inline for protection coating or high gloss in flood and spot applications with the addition of our near-line glossing unit. The NexPress press is the only digital press with inline dimensional printing for a raised printing effect – very popular with customers and in some cases significant increase in response in direct mail applications, for example (new case studies coming soon to our website). Kodak recently announced the Red Fluorescing Clear Dry Ink for security and workflow applications – this ink will fluoresce red when illuminated with an ultraviolet (UV) light – just like you see in airports with passports or driver’s licenses. Lastly, we have inline MICR for bank check printing, and we recently announced a new Fifth Imaging Unit Solution available next year, light black – for ultra-high image quality. We also have red, green, and blue for color gamut expansion. All of these applications are produced with the award-winning Fifth Imaging Unit.

We don’t sell papers at Kodak – so you can use standard offset stock with over 600 substrates certified for use with our press. Xerox tends to sell its own papers.

You will notice more differential gloss with the iGen platform. We tend to match the gloss level of the inks with the gloss level of the papers / substrates. In addition, we announced our matte finish with works great in many different applications including photo portraiture or in high-end magazines. This is accomplished by simply switching in/out the traditional fuser roller.

 

[Real Deal]

Listen, the gentleman working for Kodak is just telling you what he wants you to hear. The fact is Igen3 or Igen4 can running thousands of stocks, including plastics, magnets and there are so many I cant even begin to name. Printers I am familiar with run offset stock all the time no issues. As for the clear. All Kodak is doing is running a clear toner. It is not UV and not protection. Unless you are running everthing coated the clear does not even play. And to be frank, just buy a offine UV coater, it costs much less to take that approach. The other issue you should strongly consider is the finacial stability of the company. Kodak has been tetering on the edge of financial colapse for years. What happens when the company crashes and burns, you are out of luck. Also support is so important. One thing about Kodak that I have heard often is that the support in the field is lacking. Ulimately the decision is yours. Just be careful.

 

[Josh]

The issue about what paper you can actually buy in to make use of the larger format is also an interesting one...

The best way I can work out is to buy SRA2 sheets (450x640mm) and then cut 94mm off to bring it down to 356x640mm... (or lose 84mm for the iGen size) ...so basically when running the larger size sheet you'll be throwing away 94x640mm of every sheet you run???

However I don't think the main benefit given by these larger sheet sizes is reduced cost, it's the ability to produce things such as 6pp A4 folds, Landscape A4 book covers and Oversize A4 presentation folders. Currently these can only be produced digitally on devices such as a Xeikon.

 

[Jorge Pease]

Just for comparison at .06 per click and .05-.06 per sheet of paper and based on 100K legal size pamphlets per mo. I am using legal size because the HP is limited to 13 in. on the shorter dimension.

Variable Costs (click + paper)
HP 13 x 19 1 up $11,000
NexPress or Igen 2 up $5,500
NexPress or Igen 3 up $3,960

Hours to print
Not to mention hours to print
HP (1 up) - 50 hours
Nexpress (2 up) - 21 hours
Igen (2 up) - 17 hours

Nexpress and Igen (3 up) - 14 hours

Imagine right now we are using our Indigo to print over 100K pamphlets per month. Switching to a 3up format would save us close to $7k per month in variable costs and we would complete the job about 36hours quicker though the difference from 2 up to 3 up is not as significant.

 

[billyinlasvegas]

Hi Jorge,

I've been working on a iGen4 for about a year now so if you have any iGen questions I can give you real world answers.

Before buying our iGen4 we looked at every digital device and we tested the only NexPress in the Las Vegas market and I was disappointed. That being said we narrowed it down to 2 choices an Indigo 7000 and an iGen4 we tried to purchase both but ended up with only the iGen4 (that's a different story all together!).

Bottom line with the iGen4 you're looking at $.04 for 8.5" clicks, $0.6 for anything larger up to 26". Just keep this in mind, the 26" option makes the machine much longer and the 26" tray cannot run paper that is smaller than 10"x10" wide so forget about running 8.5"x11" and 8.5"x14" unless you get two paper feeders (again space will be a big factor).

One last thing, I hope you plan on running more than 100k per month...

 

[Jorge Pease]

Thanks, can you elaborate on what you let the down with the Nexpress? I appreciate that extra information on the paper feeders, that might present a problem down the line but not a big one.

Yes I was just using 100K as an example. One of the jobs we run every month is about 150K legal size so its going to save us a great deal of money to go 2-3 up but we are slowly and steadily increasing our volumes.

 

[Jorge Pease]

Also would love to hear comments on Nexpress'es ORC plan and Igens Toner plan vs clicks

Thanks,

Jorge

 

[billyinlasvegas]

When we were looking for a digital press we took our most complicated and problematic files and printed them on all kinds of equipment. All of the devices printed the colors fairly close to each and the biggest difference to between them was quality. Hands down the best work came out of the Indigo.

But the color accuracy on the NexPress was way off. I asked the Kodak rep doing the demo if there was something he needed to do or change on the press and he assured me it was my file. I went to my car and dug up samples from my car that had been printed earlier that week on a variety of Canon, Xerox, HP and KM devices to show them what I meant and the rep insisted it was my file that was the problem.

I'm not saying it's a bad press, I'm sure there are lots of people that get great results from it. But if the sales rep and their "expert" refuse to see that their product was not up to par then I expect that the service people will be even worse.

 

[Jorge Pease]

I hear you on the quality issue, HP is amazing in that respect. I walked in with my files and they printed them on the spot perfectly. Kodak took weeks and weeks to get the prints back to me and Xerox wouldn't even return my calls.

If it weren't for the format limitations of the HP I would be tempted to get another but the maintenance has become slightly burdensome. I wouldn't mind except lately our press has been having problems which I can't diagnose and the techs haven't fixed it so I figure they can't diagnose correctly either, yet they make it sound like I am the fool which Im going to clear up today.

Kodak and Xerox are acting like used car salespeople, hiding charges iat every opportunity while HP gives you the nuimbers straignt up. At this moment I can't tell who I am more disappointed with in that respect.

Lower the click, raise the maintenance, add a variable click and so on. They'v done nothing but confuse me and waste my time. Can you tell me are you on the "Buy your own toner plan" and if so, are you saving money over click charges?

Thanks for all your feedback.

 

[billyinlasvegas]

We're not buying our own toner. There's a few reasons for that, almost all the material I print has full coverage and since we're not really "print for pay" we just didn't want to worry about it.

Like I said before I'm paying about $.04 for 8.5" click, $.06 for anything larger and .005 for black and white all sizes. The cheap b&w click was important for us since that's about a third of what I run.

As far as maintenance goes, we're a little over 8 million impressions right now and I've only had 3 days where I couldn't print anything. One day was a major machine problem, the second time it was a software patch that killed our RIP and the third time it was a pre-arranged scheduled software update.

All the maintenance is fairly simple even though I had to spend a week in training in order to become "certified".

One other big factor for us was that Xerox has 4 iGen technicians here in town, HP has 1 Indigo guy (they claim it's because they don't break so they don't need more than that) and Kodak has to fly someone in.

That being said it's not all praise for Xerox. Their sales people drive me crazy, I can't stand their analysts and their service people only show up quickly because they want a free lunch.

 

[Jorge Pease]

Thanks for your real world considerations, glad to hear maintenance is not that big a deal.

We have a substantial black only volume as well which leans me toward the xerox machine but I' l leave it to the owners to make the call.

If we go with Xerox I'l be sure to set up a special lunchroom just for the techs

Cheers,

Jorge

 

[Jorge Pease]

Went with iGen4 ... I'v never heard it mentioned before but man this machine is quiet!!

Anyone interested in splitting paper orders sheeted to size 14.33 x 26, from mill, let me know.

 

[Jorge Pease]

Starting to regret going with Xerox iGen4. Besides last minutes modifications to the agreement we can't keep the machine up and running. I keep hearing how these machines are good for millions of impressions per month and so far we are lucky to get 70K.

Yesterday we printed 2600 sheets almost completed a single job, before paper jams took over and kept the xerox techs here till 8:30 at night. The day before we printed all day without a single jam. The day before that down, the day before that down ... what the heck!!! Boards Down, Software Glitches, Totally out of control.

Yesterday they told me it was the paper. We are using Macgregor Digital from Mac Papers, Xerox wants double the price for their Xerox brand papers. Somebody tell me we didn't just buy into my worst nightmare.

The managers are all here telling me they are going to make it right but this is the first Brand Spanking New machine we have ever had that has acted like this. My 3 year old HP gets more done than this brand new machine, what a joke!!

Xerox,
First off, start by not lying about your pricing and changing what is included in the deal.
Second off, get my damn machine fixed or get it out of my shop!!