iGen150 Quality Issues from Fusion VDP

[climberdmm]

Hey Everybody!

Long time viewer of the forum, first time poster.

Hoping someone here has a similar setup as us and can help us out with some image quality issues revolving around prepress, RIP and an iGen 150.

We just installed an iGen150 with a Xerox FreeFlow RIP. We use Fusion Pro Creator 10x for all our VDP and imposition.

The quality of print on the iGen150 is absolutely terrible
(terrible gradients, terrible color, it's just making clients mad that our quality has degraded so much from our old Versant 80 with an EX80 RIP).

So... here's the typical prepress...

1. Export to PDF/VT from Fusion Pro Creator
2. RIP in standard que (600x600x8) -- use embedded colometric and color profiles
3. RIP takes forever
4. Finally prints
5. Print quality sucks

We have tried so many configurations on the freeflow we can think of, redesigning PDF's from scratch, creating text outlines etc etc. Typical PDF we run is 500 pages, even if the total print run is 10k pages, we split the PDF file into 500 page chunks to cut down on RIP time to print.

One major example that is easy to explain to give you all a visual on, is that commonly, all text has a small, white outline.

Of course, the iGen150 is not on service so we have no help from Xerox training on here. It was installed by Milo so we believe it's top-notch.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Call Xerox - this is a relatively new machine so it should be kicking out beautiful copy. They need to help you troubleshoot your settings, something that is probably too cumbersome for a forum discussion.

 

[AP90]

Idk if I would want to take on an iGen without a contract. More power to ya. We had a 1000i and I’d never have wanted it off contract. But I’m assuming this is a used machine? Could it have been that the machine was a lemon from the beginning and you just took on someone else’s problem?

 

[Schnitzel]

...
5. Print quality sucks
...

If you are complaining about print quality, that statement is a bit general... There could be dozens of reasons for print quality issues.

What exactly are the problems you see? High resolution scans or digital microscope captures will be great.

 

[climberdmm]

Schnitzel

Thanks for responding.

Here's some example of print issues using direct xerox provided PDFs.

The most prominent are outlines on all text no matter if the fonts are embedded or flattened in the PDF or they are generated via outlines in AI.

The other most prominent issues are just overall vibrancy of the color being laid down.

The 5th picture attached is a good example of print quality looking rough. That is on Carolina C1S, on the coated side. You can tell it's just grainy, jagged and just doesn't have the clarity or color pop as intended.

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

How many million impressions does this machine have? I know this is probably the first thing anyone would try, but have you enabled/disabled trapping for the PDF's? I'm not sure which options are available on an iGen 150 vs a Versant 180P or a J75, but this looks sub-J75 quality to me. Perhaps even below the quality of the Docucolor series. We all buy our digital presses on service contracts for a reason.

 

[climberdmm]

It's got about 10 million on it, low for an iGen.

Everybody says the machine is in spec. We are considering putting this under service if we cannot get the quality to be fixed. We have a 3rd party tech that solely works on and installs iGens all over the country, he installed this one, so that's pretty much our service. All supplies in, a click ends up being around 3 cents opposed to $2500 base a month and 4.5+ cents a click for service. So if we can just get past the quality issue and tune the machine in, we are golden.

I agree, the imagery looks like an older docucolor, long ago we had a 700 and the quality reminds me of that.

Perhaps the $820 for the first 1/2 hour + $94/per 15 minutes is worth it if we can get a color tech from xerox on-site.

Appreciate the feedback so far all!

 

[PricelineNegotiator]

Perhaps the $820 for the first 1/2 hour + $94/per 15 minutes is worth it if we can get a color tech from xerox on-site.!

Considering many jobs that are run on an iGen can bill for several times that amount, it's a no-brainer.

 

[Wippet]

Schnitzel

Thanks for responding.

Here's some example of print issues using direct xerox provided PDFs.

The most prominent are outlines on all text no matter if the fonts are embedded or flattened in the PDF or they are generated via outlines in AI.

The other most prominent issues are just overall vibrancy of the color being laid down.

The 5th picture attached is a good example of print quality looking rough. That is on Carolina C1S, on the coated side. You can tell it's just grainy, jagged and just doesn't have the clarity or color pop as intended.

This just looks like a lack of trap. Our iGen4 with a Fiery RIP would look just like this without it! I don't know much about free flow but I'd imagine theres an option for it.

 

[climberdmm]

Wippet, that's the crazy thing. What you saw, is with a trap! Freeflow you get a few trap options like the Fiery, such as outline and overprint. The trap we typically set from a .005pt to .05pt, maybe the issue is with the way the Freeflow is setup.

Perhaps it's time to call Xerox?

 

[Wippet]

Wippet, that's the crazy thing. What you saw, is with a trap! Freeflow you get a few trap options like the Fiery, such as outline and overprint. The trap we typically set from a .005pt to .05pt, maybe the issue is with the way the Freeflow is setup.

Perhaps it's time to call Xerox?

Yep get them in. I think it looks like a RIP issue as it doesn't look like a fit problem. I could be wrong.

 

[Schnitzel]

Wippet, that's the crazy thing. What you saw, is with a trap! Freeflow you get a few trap options like the Fiery, such as outline and overprint. The trap we typically set from a .005pt to .05pt, maybe the issue is with the way the Freeflow is setup.

Perhaps it's time to call Xerox?

That's very strange. Small black text does not need trapping - it should be set to overprint. If that is indeed a pure black text and not some very dark color.
If it is possible, can you please share the PDF of the second image you posted? I'd like to check its makeup.

Try, just for testing, to disable any color management in the RIP - just print by the numbers. See if anything changes, especially with the small black text.

Also, maybe create a small and simple ATP by yourself: solid blocks of color, gradients and vigenttes of primary and secondary inks, black overprinted text on blocks of color, knockout text etc. Save as PDF without any color conversion. Check the file looks as expected in Acrobat, then send to the press and see what happens. Maybe this will give you a clue as to the source of the problems.

 

[Shaare]

So many things... first off, a properly color managed iGen running on decent stock and operated by a trained operator has truly remarkable IQ and will print non stop until hell freezes over.

1. What's the stock? Did you run CMT?
2. Did you profile?
3. How often do you run CMT?
4. What is the temperature / humidity in shop?
5. Is there an HVAC to maintain it?
6. Is your machine run by a Xerox-trained operator that is experienced?