Ink & Fountain solution Designed & Developed to work together

[D Ink Man]

I copy and paste one very important paragraph form Erik's last reply:

Also density is not directly related to the amount of ink printed in a solid ink film. It is close but not exactly related. The same amount of ink printed smoothly on a substrate will show a higher density than a if it is printed less smoothly on the same substrate.

This is key. Smoothness of solid lay. If the numerical density values are skewed because of differences in ink lay down, the whole thing here can go kabosh. An ink that lays smoother, with less mottle and less water interference will perhaps cause the pressman to either change barrel stroke to a reduced percentage and/or key down the ink rate. In this case, I must say, that you may get better mileage with an ink of this nature. Why, I ask myself? Because if you examine the printed solid under high magnification, you will see less paper and more ink via the beautifully smooth solid.

There is some further deep thinking on this matter by the gray mattered brained inhabitants that make up our Print Planet.

Sharing and discussing with resulting educative knowledge is a wonderful thing. Thinking is a wonderful joy to love. D

 

[Lukew]

Green,

Your example seems a bit contradictory.

Why did Ink A use 20% more than Ink B on the first run?; Identical running conditions as you stated, including fountain solution!

Why did Ink A use 8.33% more on the second identical run versus the first run?

Fountain Solution A resulted in 23.8% more ink usage versus Fountain Solution B

My guess is that poor density control occurred somewhere during these runs, for whatever reason.

My suggestion would be to compare 2 different Process Series, K-C-M-Y, with knowing the absolute color strength if any exists. Then closely measure each process ink (4) for ink consumption. Keys to the success and making this truly valid will be absolute DENSITY CONTROL. And the longer the print run, even further validity could be realized.

A press run of 1 million impressions 500K vs 500K is suggested. I understand that this may be some endeavor, because for a live run of that size can be rare. But if you get the opportunity, it will take multiple SERVICEMEN to assist in the print run. Men that can follow a proven mileage analysis in accurately weighing each ink and feverishly recording print densities, temperatures, ink film thicknesses (Important!, remove that darn guard if necessary) fount conditions and total data collection.

Then and only then, after the SERVICEMEN have accurately calculated and formally reported on their findings, will the ink mileage test be valid..

I am sure that RIT has done studies on this subject. Perhaps we can search some archivial reports from them to start the engines of this endeavor.

This would be a great test to view the data of!!
Although the cost involved would probably too high.
Perhaps you D ink Man could provide your ink and chosen fount & who ever sells the system green is talking about could provide their ink and fount.

 

[Green Printer]

Green,

Your example seems a bit contradictory.

Why did Ink A use 20% more than Ink B on the first run?; Identical running conditions as you stated, including fountain solution!

Why did Ink A use 8.33% more on the second identical run versus the first run?

Fountain Solution A resulted in 23.8% more ink usage versus Fountain Solution B

My guess is that poor density control occurred somewhere during these runs, for whatever reason.

My suggestion would be to compare 2 different Process Series, K-C-M-Y, with knowing the absolute color strength if any exists. Then closely measure each process ink (4) for ink consumption. Keys to the success and making this truly valid will be absolute DENSITY CONTROL. And the longer the print run, even further validity could be realized.

A press run of 1 million impressions 500K vs 500K is suggested. I understand that this may be some endeavor, because for a live run of that size can be rare. But if you get the opportunity, it will take multiple SERVICEMEN to assist in the print run. Men that can follow a proven mileage analysis in accurately weighing each ink and feverishly recording print densities, temperatures, ink film thicknesses (Important!, remove that darn guard if necessary) fount conditions and total data collection.

Then and only then, after the SERVICEMEN have accurately calculated and formally reported on their findings, will the ink mileage test be valid..

I am sure that RIT has done studies on this subject. Perhaps we can search some archivial reports from them to start the engines of this endeavor.

Your example seems a bit contradictory.

D Why did Ink A use 20% more than Ink B on the first run?; Identical running conditions as you stated, including fountain solution!

G The only commonality between the inks are pigment load and VOCS. They are from different manufactures, formulations varnish systems and additives. The inks have very different performance capabilities. Ink A required a thicker film to perform and transfer than ink B.

D Why did Ink A use 8.33% more on the second identical run versus the first run?

G The first test was the exact same fountain solution for both runs. The first test was done to show that under identical conditions inks from different manufacturers will require different quantities to do the same job.

The second test used different fountain solutions from different manufactures than the first test. This was done to show even changing fountain solutions has a big effect on mileage. The answers is different fountain solution.


D Fountain Solution A resulted in 23.8% more ink usage versus Fountain Solution B

G Fountain solutions different formulation have a huge influence on an inks ability to make an emulsion along with the ink film thickness required to wetsplit transfer and maintain density.


Here is another one.
Press has been running a job for 6 hours everything is under complete control. There are absolutely no quality or runablity issues at this point. Press is stopped fountain solution is drained and the ink is removed from the wells. Ink from a different manufacture are put into the wells and also a fountain solution from a different manufacture is put into the circulators. Within 3 minutes after restarting up the press the ink stoke and water settings are reduced this continues for about 15 minutes. The ink stroke is about 25% less, the water meter speed is dropped about 30% yet we are still at density and color. It takes 6 more hours to complete the job and the ink stroke remained at the 25% lower setting throughout and the water also remained at the 30% slower speed. In this test the dot gain was reduced,contrast increased, quicker drying, more gloss. In fact there was such an increase in quality verses the first 6 hours of the run that the printer was afraid of the customers reaction. After the customer seen the results they accepted the first part of the run and asked that from now own the new ink and chemistry must be used for all future projects.

 

[D Ink Man]

Green,

You changed "2" things on the second case example. Ink and fountain solution.

How do you know the absolute color strength with the ink change? Were you told perhaps by an ink suppler rep? I'm sure you didn't do bleach tests press side.

Also, here is another fact to ponder. I can go up on the catwalk of your press and add a 1% liquid addition of an additive to your fountain and blend it in. Your ink density will jump by a minimum of 25%. It does not matter if it is a process or spot color ink. The reason this happens is because the additive has totally changed the transfer characteristics of your ink. It doesn't mean you will be able to key or stroke back your ink settings that result in better mileage. What it does mean is that you will have to change both your water and ink settings to accomodate what I did. And the final result would be; you would suffer severe printability loss. It is due to a transfer phenomenon.

So the discussion can continue. D

 

[Ajax]

Creating a "control" for this is like fantasy land. All the ideal conditions will never be the same between inks.

Next it will be: when you changed the fountain solution did you account for the excess old solution in the lines?

Unless you have a lot of money and two brand new identical presses with all rollers new and their settings the same could you pull off such a comparison of ink. Even then the air conditioner could flow more over the press on the right and create different water conditions.

It's madness I tell you! Madness!

 

[D Ink Man]

I like it Ajax. Your words have solidified that offset printing is an art rather than a science. Thank you.

Ajax, do you have anything you would like to add in about ink mileage in regards to our converstions in this post? It will be certainly valued. D

 

[Ajax]

I'm getting the opinion that these high pigmented inks are causing the problems on my machine.

Nobody told us to get a new fountain solution. They just sent the ink.

So what separates these fountain solutions?

 

[D Ink Man]

Who is they, if I may ask?

 

[Lukew]

D Ink Man: Do you agree or disagree that alcohol (IPA) in fountain solution acts as a diluent to the ink and attacks and changes the properties and flow characteristics of the ink?

Do you agree or disagree that the alcohol free fountain solutions containing solvents in the form of all the particular glycols also act as a diluent to the ink and attack and change the properties and flow characteristics of the ink?

Since your an ink manufacturer can you list the properties/additives that are in a ink set to help stop the ink being attacked or broken down by solvents in the fountain solutions either in the form of IPA/glycols?

Now if your going to tell me that the alcohol free founts don't effect the ink like IPA does then can you confirm that the properties of the ink has been changed to suit running IPA free?

As far as I know from every ink manufacturer/supplier here in Aus they do not offer a ink set that has been developed purely for IPA free printing. (Why? I would say because the solvent glycols still attack ink in the same way that IPA does)

 

[D Ink Man]

Lukew,

I do agree with both questions. The IPA breaks down the ink relatively more than the alcohol substitutes (butyl cellusolve normally). But this is all dependent of the amount of IPA you are using in your fount. I have been in pressrooms that use as little as 2% and some that use as high as 20% (knock you out when you walk in).

As far as the material make up of printing inks, there are no real additives or raw materials to prevent the breakdown of the ink. This is particularly true if the fount is being overdosed by too much IPA or too much alcohol substitute.

And Lukew, it all goes back to that Servicing thing. It would be excellent if you can get your ink supplier and fountain solution supplier to work together. They need to do lab work to come up with the proper products, at the proper dosages, to give you the best oppourtunity for magnificent lithographing. They have the tools to conduct proper emulsification studies. It is just getting them to the the WORK. WORK is what it takes on their behalf for your benefit. You are the customer and you deserve it sir. D

 

[Green Printer]

Green,

You changed "2" things on the second case example. Ink and fountain solution.

How do you know the absolute color strength with the ink change? Were you told perhaps by an ink suppler rep? I'm sure you didn't do bleach tests press side.

Also, here is another fact to ponder. I can go up on the catwalk of your press and add a 1% liquid addition of an additive to your fountain and blend it in. Your ink density will jump by a minimum of 25%. It does not matter if it is a process or spot color ink. The reason this happens is because the additive has totally changed the transfer characteristics of your ink. It doesn't mean you will be able to key or stroke back your ink settings that result in better mileage. What it does mean is that you will have to change both your water and ink settings to accomodate what I did. And the final result would be; you would suffer severe printability loss. It is due to a transfer phenomenon.

So the discussion can continue. D

The pigment load or strength was all a known factor. We were given the formula before the test were run.

The additives to fountain solution is an old trick and it will screw up printability. This was not done.

There was no printability loss the opposite occurred enhancing the printability.

Everyone seems to have their mind made up that this cannot be done even yet over 100 million impression a day in plants throughout the world prove otherwise.

 

[Lukew]

Luke,

You face the same problem that Poly plate users have for years. On the Polyester plate surface, there isn't sufficient grain on the plate to effectively carry water and maintain the non-image area clean. At the same time, you find yourself trying to balance ink and water. A little one way results in dry up of the lead edge and a bit the other direction results in the color washing out.

There are several products that will help you in producing a stable water film on your plates. These additives are all Amorphous silica based and aid by binding to the plate surface and allowing the non-image area to carry water effectively, evenly, and stable during your various press pulls. It works with whatever fount you have preference to use.

Mitsubishi SLM AO2
Allied DTA (Might be discontinued)
Prisco SMA (Silver Master Additive)

All alcohol does is reduce the water's surface tension and allow water to run "Wetter". Once you pulled it out of the equation, you are now relying the true wetting characteristics of the fount to maintain the non-image area of the plate clean. Depending on how long you've ran IPA, your meters and water forms may be on the harder side, not allowing you to carry water at an acceptable level which your ink will tolerate.

The picture framing is coming from the excess ink and water on a short sheet not having anywhere else to go.

Happy to help!

Thank you for your expertise!
I have added the mitsubishi SLM -oa2 into the fount mixture at 0.5% which is so far the minimum recommended amount
(0.5% - 3%). Apart from crazy amounts of foaming everywhere out of the chiller and over the floor which hopefully anti foam will stop. The product seems to be working so far.

Early days, but if it continues to work I will be a happy man.
On the few jobs I have done the results are:
Fount dials seem to be lower,
plates are not scumming up along the lead edge and working its way into the job like before
Seems to be less paper stretch, which we have always struggled with when reducing or eliminating IPA
After you stop the job the plate seems to stay wetter for longer, whereas before it would dry off near instantly

I have some bigger jobs coming up so it will be interesting to see the results after that

 

[D Ink Man]

Progress is being made! That is good news.

Thank you Print Planet for existing and being such a Service to us all.

Cory and Gordo deserve to be in the Printing Hall of Fame!

 

[Asures]

Luke,

I forgot to mention the foaming that will occur with any of those Amorphous silica based products. Most of the people that use those plates are on small gravity fed fountain solution bottles (AB Dick, Multi, or Hamada type presses). A little bit of Anti Foam will temporarely help but you can also minimize the foaming by adjusting the flow intake of your recirculation tank or getting a larger micron filter bag.

Glad to hear the good news!

 

[Lukew]

Antifoam has helped somewhat, but we will change to a larger micron filter as we can't slow down the recirculation any further otherwise pans over flow.

Another happy days printing. All the problems that were are now so far no more.
I can't believe the company that sells us the poly plates which is also the company that we got the additive through, hadn't told us about this additive years and years ago.

We are holding screens open that register on the file as 98%, overall all the dots look sharper & ink water balance is significantly more stable.

 

[Kaoticor]

It's amazing how much of a difference the right chemical can make! I'll never forget some years back the day our chrome rollers started to pick up ink after having never had that problem for 10 years. Then, no matter what ink / fount solution we used, or how well we cleaned everything, we could not stop them from picking up ink.

All it took was getting a bottle of the right chrome roller cleaner in and the very next day we were having as Lukew said: "Another happy days printing!"

 

[BillJ]

I would add to Asures list is Mitsubishi OD-50 fountain. It is designed for continuous dampeners (but works with all) and works well in reducing picture framing. I have used it many times on different presses with great improvement.

 

[D Ink Man]

Keep dem Tech Boots on the ground, dats all.