Ink Presetting systems

Ink Presetting Systems

Ink Presetting Systems

Hi,

Any experiences with PressPerCent software, do you think that its gonna be a good application to test for establishing good start point for print jobs?

I am also keen to know that does this technology of ink-presetting give expected results once good settings are derived and can the same settings be used for different kinds of jobs ie low ink coverage, medium ink coverage and high ink coverage? I (personally) believe in 2 basic kinds of paper stocks ie coated and uncoated, is it necessary to define ink-presetting for gloss coated and matt coated substrates....

Since I have to practical background on this subject, theoretically if we are able establish a co-relation between ink coverage of each zone and ink key openings of that specific zone (along with sweep settings) will we be able to use these parameters for day to day print jobs?

I am kind of confused on the implementation part any input will be of help.

Thanks
 
Hi,

Any experiences with PressPerCent software, do you think that its gonna be a good application to test for establishing good start point for print jobs?

I am also keen to know that does this technology of ink-presetting give expected results once good settings are derived and can the same settings be used for different kinds of jobs ie low ink coverage, medium ink coverage and high ink coverage? I (personally) believe in 2 basic kinds of paper stocks ie coated and uncoated, is it necessary to define ink-presetting for gloss coated and matt coated substrates....

Since I have to practical background on this subject, theoretically if we are able establish a co-relation between ink coverage of each zone and ink key openings of that specific zone (along with sweep settings) will we be able to use these parameters for day to day print jobs?

I am kind of confused on the implementation part any input will be of help.

Thanks

Tarun,

PressPerCent software will give you the best performance relative to cost, since it is so inexpensive.

Also the problem of presetting is much more complicated than what one might think. Much more expensive software packages do not address the issues properly and some even address issues incorrectly. As an example, some software packages advertise that dot gain is included in their algorithms. This is a fault since dot gain is not directly related to ink consumption. A measure of high dot gain can occur when more ink or less ink is consumed.

Also some expensive software advertise self learning functions. This is also a fault and basically a waste of money. Great for the vendors to up the price but not so good for the users. The problem of presetting when described mathematically basically does not allow a learning capability. Learning capability implies that you have given set of conditions for all jobs and that by iteration one can move the setting parameters closer to the ideal. Mathematically this fails because each job imposes its own conditions on the problem and previous jobs can not help determine the new conditions. If the expensive algorithms took into consideration all the factors that are required to determine the ink key settings, they would already have the solution and no learning function would be required.

In addition, the calculation for presetting does not have to be highly accurate. If it has an accuracy of +/- 8%, you would probably be within your print tolerances.

The calculation for ink key setting is not an absolute value but is a relative value. It is a calculation of the keys relative to each other and should not be affected by the paper type.

On the other hand, the sweep value is aimed at the overall level of density and it is related to the paper type. Density is not an absolute value but the reflective outcome of the ink film thickness on a particular paper. In general, the same ink film will result in a much higher density on coated paper than on uncoated (matt) paper.

Do not look too hard for co-relationships because you will not find them. As mentioned above, the algorithms used in the industry now are not good enough and added to that, the capability of your press's ink feed is poor with respect to setting an accurate and consistent given ink feed rate. On modern offset presses, there still is no mechanical adjustment (ink keys or sweep) that is directly related to the volume of ink being fed into the roller train and no way to accurately determine the zero set point which is the critical datum for any presetting values.

What this all means to you is that if you have no presetting at all, even a simple one like PressPerCent will be a big improvement. Going to much more expensive systems will not be much better due to the limitations of inaccurate algorithms and lack of capability of ink feed control in the press itself.

When you do get a presetting software, don't work too hard trying to get the last 10% to 20% improvement out of the system. It is a waste of time trying since the capability is not there. Be happy with the first 80% improvement and let the operators complete the rest.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

Erik
 
Hi Erik,

Thanks for your input. Please suggest if my approach for setting up of "PressPerCent" (or any third party application) is correct, the process is given below:

Press Parameters: Heidelberg MOV 19 in. x 25 in. press
No of ink zones: 20 at 31.75 mm spacing

For setting up I use press sheet size : 18 in. x 25 in.
I split the sheet in 20 parts horizontally at 31.75 mm spacing and make bar's of different heights (indicating different ink coverage ratio's eg 10% on left to 100% on right)

Then I feed this data to PessPerCent software, the software gives different ink zone numbers for CMYK and a sweep setting value.

a) I print this target using these values on press
b) If I achieve a target density eg 1.8 for black then I let the settings as it is for future jobs
c) If I don't get the target density eg 1.8 for black then I tweek either the ink zone values or sweep values or both to get my target density on press and then apply a curve on PressPerCent so that I get desired values on press (based on my observation on the press while trying to get the desired density value)

Now theoretically this is the co-relation I was saying in the previous message ie. if a co-relation of ink coverage to inkzone release values and sweep settings are correct then these settings should be valid for all situations. I am not worried about TVI at this point of time because TVI will be set via the rip at a later point of time. Right now the aim is to get target densities correct for specific ink coverages.

Does this make any sense to you !!!!!

Thanks
 
Press Parameters: Heidelberg MOV 19 in. x 25 in. press No of ink zones: 20 at 31.75 mm spacing

For setting up I use press sheet size : 18 in. x 25 in.
I split the sheet in 20 parts horizontally at 31.75 mm spacing and make bar's of different heights (indicating different ink coverage ratio's eg 10% on left to 100% on right)

Then I feed this data to PessPerCent software, the software gives different ink zone numbers for CMYK and a sweep setting value.

a) I print this target using these values on press
b) If I achieve a target density eg 1.8 for black then I let the settings as it is for future jobs
c) If I don't get the target density eg 1.8 for black then I tweek either the ink zone values or sweep values or both to get my target density on press and then apply a curve on PressPerCent so that I get desired values on press (based on my observation on the press while trying to get the desired density value)

Now theoretically this is the co-relation I was saying in the previous message ie. if a co-relation of ink coverage to inkzone release values and sweep settings are correct then these settings should be valid for all situations. I am not worried about TVI at this point of time because TVI will be set via the rip at a later point of time. Right now the aim is to get target densities correct for specific ink coverages.

Does this make any sense to you !!!!!

Thanks

Tarun,

I will start with your last statements first. Your view of what is theoretically correct is wrong. It will not be valid for all situations. That was my point before. Don't expect it to be valid because if you do, you will just get frustrated. Yes, TVI has nothing to do with ink key presetting so don't worry about it.

Before you do anything, you should try to see if the ink keys are even across the width of the press. This is related to the zero setting concept but since it is impossible to accurately set the zero set point on presses with ductor rollers, I will suggest a step that might help.

Make a plate that has a 20% bar across the with of the plate. Set your ink keys to 20%. Do this for all CMYK units but be sure to not overprint any bars. The goal here is to see how even the ink keys are across the press. If printing the bar is even across the press then at least you know at the 20% point the keys are OK. If a zone is too dense or not dense enough, hopefully there is the ability to adjust the ink key so that the 20% will result in even density on the bar. If you had a press that could be zero set properly, this step would not be needed.

Now do the step you outlined. I think it would be 5%, 10%, 15% .....90%, 95%, 100% for 20 keys or
10% for keys 1 and 2, then 20% for keys 3 and 4, .......100% for keys 19 and 20.

Just be sure that you have the zones lined up with the imaged that has these steps. Don't assume that the edge of your paper starts exactly at the edge of the first key.

I am not sure why you are aiming at a black density of 1.8. My view is that this calibation is done for each CMYK colour with that type of plate and run one at a time. No over printing. I would also aim the density at the normal densities for the CMYK inks.

If your plan is to calibrate using only black and then apply that information to other units, that might be simpler to do but be aware that the sweeps will be different for the different inks and for different papers.

The purpose of the 10% to 100% test plate image is to check for linearity of ink key output. There are a lot of issues that you are not aware of that will affect this test so don't be too picky about it.

From past experience with a web press with a continuous ductor, the biggest impact on improving performance of presetting, with a not so perfect presetting situation, was to have the zero setting done properly. The zero setting point is the datum for the ink key values. If one does not have a predictable datum, the presetting values are not going to be predictable. The 20% bar test is a practical way to try to account for the lack of zero setting capability.

Don't expect low coverage accuracy at all. The equipment is just not capable. Don't let that frustrate you.

Good luck and I hope this helped.
 
Preset

Preset

We have had both the Bladesetter Komori product and the Heidelbelrg Prepress Interface products on 40" presses. They each have their advantages, and drawbacks, but are worth their weight in gold. After a bit of weaking, the pressmen are in love. PMS colors vary so much from one to the other in pigment strength that they are never as close as CMYK, but it is still a big help. We normally have to just change the sweep. It greatly narrows the productivity, waste, and quality between the great pressman and good pressmen. The guy that is just an OK operator starts out really close and is not as likely to get way out of wack.
 
I agree roy35, I call ink presetting the great equalizer, it allows anyone to startout with the same settings for the first pull. PMS colours are not as predictable as Process but at least the ink profile is even. Our operators love it also as they were manually setting the inks keys by having the plates up at the console and judging the ink coverage for every one. We believe it saved us at least 20mins per MR.
 
Helo to everybody,
i have a Roland 704 year2000, and my pressman is doing the presseting by his own seeing the plates so far.
After reading your advices for the presseting i downloaded the PRESS PERCENT DEMO, can anyone helpme how to connent it on the press???

thanks to everybody can give a help
 
Hi everybody,
let me say thanks for interesting topic!

We have Manroland 205E, no software provided from manroland... So I have contacted guys from Printflow and their help was superb!

I have started by myself with Presspercent. It is great point to start and we are still using it! But you will shortly find that the ability to set different curves for different paper types and different coverage is not so easy... It have a lot of features for its valu without any doubt, but when we start using Printflow DC software, everything was clearly better! It have ability to read the end press settings, so you can adjust curves over time. It also have all features that we needed and they have connected it to our press by serial cable! So it is huge step forward for us. Now we have modernized press. The only thing is that it is impossible to set ductor values (manroland have locked it) over this link, so they are working on solution (CAN bus or Jobcard emulator).

We are still on start, so the target densities are big challange for us, but I hope it will be better after some time.

And yes, selecting zero point is almost impossible for our press and im not talking about mechanical problems with some zone slides... I think we will need to fix it ($$$)...

//edit:
and yes, mr. Erik Nikkanen is technicaly right, if we look on this problem deeply, there are technical imperfections/limitations. But in daily work, the pre-setting will help. And yes even not-perfect settings are usually better then looking on plates by eye and trying to decide what ink key settings are close to desired density...
 
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Gentlemen and majklcze,


Ink Pre- Setting Systems, produce - Zonal Ink Slide setting via the Ink Duct, which reproduces the inputs into a ..... Roller Train Inking Profile.


NOT ....Curves!


Regards, Alois,


1-Figure1-1 Zonal Ink Feed.png
 
Gentlemen and majklcze,


Ink Pre- Setting Systems, produce - Zonal Ink Slide setting via the Ink Duct, which reproduces the inputs into a ..... Roller Train Inking Profile.


NOT ....Curves!


Regards, Alois,




Yes sorry
by "curves" I mean correction curves in software, in other words the formula for calculation of ink key opening (and ductor) values, that produces inking profile as stated above.
 
I've found that the accuracy of CIP data is directly related to a companies willingness to tune the ENTIRE process. If a company is unwilling to do adequate testing and repeated adjustments to the entire process, then what you can be left with is presets that are no better than a good pressman manual presetting.
If a company is committed to refining the CIP data then you can expect pretty accurate starting points. Ive yet to see CIP data that can be uploaded to the press, and run without some sort of intervention. Perhaps there are some companies with quality standards that would allow for this, but in the over 35 years ive spent in the biznez Ive never worked for such a company. It should also be noted that in a multi press environment it would be advantageous to have data fine tuned to each press.
 
Hi everybody,

I would like to share you our achievements in developing a customized ink presetting system for a double width TKS Web Offset Press.
Some of the Ink key controllers were faulty and spares were not available. Replacing the whole system would have been much more costly for the customer. So we have developed a customized ink key controller compatible with their existing motor drive boards and and also developed a CIP3 based software which can process 1 bit tiff files for automatic ink presetting. Everyone was so happy with its excellent results; after running for one month we got the second order too. This time we had to just put the controllers and our HMI based operator console and integrate with our existing CIP3 server system.

We have just completed another customisation of our ink presetting system for a Harris press making it also compatible with their existing machine keyboard and led display. Apart from the HMI based operator console, the system also provide a web interface for configuration, file preview and profile setting etc. Pls watch a video of the web interface here. https://youtu.be/08Ilh4BNZq8

Also find a recent article in Printweek regarding our developments.

http://www.printweek.in/News/malayal...-setting-41401

Please feel free to get in touch with us for customized and affordable Ink Presetting Systems.

Thanks

Biju Cherian
www.asaies.com | [email protected]
 

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