KM 6500/6501 VS Canon imagepress 6000

[Whygen]

Hi - new member here and I know this topic arises quite a bit from looking through older threads but would appreciate any help...

I am currently looking to print a lot of photographic work on a regular basis and so quality is very important, I will also be printing commercial work. I am currently investigating the KM6501 (new creo rip) and the Canon 6000 (non-VP)

Have run a range of images through the KM 6500 in tests demo's on their older Fiery rip and quality was good and excellent when using the newly released Creo rip. Only reservation is that it only duplex's 256gsm (doh!)
I am reliably informed that we can run stocks upto 300gsm single sided but will have to "work n turn" if we want it double sided - I am worried that registration may suffer if we do this???

Has anybody got experience of any current KM 6500 or "about to be released" KM 6501 machines (when I say "current" I mean 6500's that have been purchased in the last 6 months - the current ones apparently have been upgraded compared to early releases) Can the current machines regulalry do 300gsm+ single sided (on a work n turn basis)???

Also I have been told that the KM6500 with Latest rip is exactly the same as the about to be released KM6501 - except that the colour of the box is slightly different ????

Has anybody got experience of the Canon 6000 (non VP) is it the same as/good as the VP engines (obviously the 6000 cant run at a constant speed on heavier stocks)??? and will it reliably duplex on 300gsm on a regular basis?

The Canon is coming in 35% more expensive than the KM...decisions, decisions.....

Would appreciate any advice

Cheers

 

[X33]

take a look at the new Xerox DocuColor 5000AP

DocuColor 5000AP Digital Press for Speed and Productivity

it will duplex up to 300gsm, keep the same speed regardless of paper weight, provide you 2400x2400 dpi, plus many other production features such as decurling, alignment, paper profilers ... ask for a demo on CREO RIP too.

 

[lfelton]

You really need to push KM for the differences between the 00 and the 01, they do have a document that details them. Here's are some of the highlights:-

- cosmetic changes
- image quality (density variation hardware mods)
- increase in PM intervals
- delta e reduced from "below 7" to "below 5"
- increased toner capacity
- multiple enhancements to finisher hardware

The above info is for a 6501e, so pls check that it applies to products lower in the range.

I hope that helps.

I don't know anything about the Canons.

 

[random]

I work for Konica and I haven't heard diddly squat about new machines, except for that mentioned at Drupa like the HC. Im not in sales so I guess we will find out when everyone else does.

 

[Whygen]

Thanks Guys

I am on the verge of buying the KM6500 - but I have been told that the 6501 comes out in Oct...and I need a machinie fast...
When I asked the KM sales team (not a fan of sales teams generally - they said that the KM6501 with Creo IC404 Plus External RIP is infact the same as the 6501 bar the cosmetics....?? the creo rip has made quite a difference - I did some tests 2 months ago on the KM and the quality was good but with the new Creo rip the results are on par with the Canon...although KM doesnt duplex on the higher weights like the Canon..?

Also saw the HC at Drupa and that was nice but heard rumours they will only be doing it on a toner model....

 

[random]

I think it is the IC-304+, which we have, and runs version 2, which the older rips can take also. The IC-304+ is three times the speed of the older RIP and I can vouch for that they are insanely fast. It also fix's a few print issues that people pointed there finger at the engine, when it was infact the DFE. If you commit to a c6501 surely they will give you a c6500 to fill the gap till it arrives?

 

[Hal Kohn]

I have found that KMGI (Konica Minolta Graphic Imaging) is more responsive, and has more savvy print people, than KMBS (Konica Minolta Business Solutions). It is amazing how big companies sometimes hide their best people, but they are there if you look for them.

 

[Arthaven]

I'm not sure about the KM but the Canon has the ability to make the sheet look less glossy. Not sure if that's something that fits in to your customer base. Oh and the Canon will auto duplex up to 300 gsm (that's what it's specced for) but I'm not sure about the reliability (have no clue). I think the only difference between the VP and non-VP is the slowing down of heavier stocks and possibly the smaller RIP. ?

 

[Whygen]

Thanks guys, we also print a lot of greeting cards (personalised) on 300+ gsm board and although I really like the KM machine with the Creo+ rip i'm just wondering how much of a ball ache "work n turning" everything on higher weight stock is going to be? In my experience it used to add 10- 20 mins to each job (aligning the registation)....KM have told me that the registration is exstremely tight when work n turning only usually takes a couple of sheets to line up...? anybody got experience of this?

 

[Craig]

Xerox 7000AP and 8000AP front to back is 0.5mm up to 300gsm auto duplexed. Creo, EFI and Freeflow front ends (I have the EFI for my 8000AP). FYI

 

[random]

For the price of Craigs 8000 you could but two c6500, 130 pages a minute, oh yeah.

 

[Whygen]

Have been with Xerox in the past and not had a pleasant experience....
Think I am gonna go with KM6501e - really liked the Canon quality but to be honest the KM was just as good wthe Creo IC304+ and Profile Wizard Digi - and they seem far more reliable (tried and tested). Think the Canon product may be good in about 6-12 months when its been in the field a bit longer and they have resolved some of the reliablity issues.

 

[Craig]

For the price of Craigs 8000 you could but two c6500, 130 pages a minute, oh yeah.

That's good, because you will need 2 in order to run the same volume of as the 8000AP. I have talked to folks who have some volume on their 6500's, and wish they had 2, because it's down with service so often. I average 1.4 service calls per month on the 8000AP, most of which are for PM related items.

 

[Whygen]

Sounds like your'e one of the lucky ones.....we had totally the opposite experience with Xerox...
Take your point about the productivity of the 8000 - but then you are paying an awful lot more and I am more of the persuasion of having 2 x KM's - at least I then have contingency - your'e obviously lucky that youre 8000 doesnt break down that often? As far as quality is concerned the KM with the latest config is on par with anything else I have seen...

 

[random]

I think Craig is on the Xerox payroll, man If I read "Front to back registration is 0.5mm and my color shift from first to last is less than 2dE" again Im gonna puke. Atleast I admit to working for Konica.

 

[Whygen]

The whole buying process is such a nightmare - I have "swung" between the KM and the Canon 3 times in the last 24 hours. Had more samples back from Canon this morning and the KM edges it...not sure if a lot of it is just down to RIP expertise tho...

The Canon seems to have more reliablity issues - any reference sites I have spoken to with a Canon - have always had an engineer in that day....

The digital press industry is rubbish - if you bought a new Audi or BMW and it went wrong every week or even once a month for a ciontinued period - you would take it back - yet we in the printing inductry seem to accept that there are going to be unreliability issues and we live with it - why cant Audi bring out a digital press

 

[random]

Fair comment. I used to work on minilabs and they had just as many moving parts as well as chemicals and they NEVER had problems. Then again you don't really duplex a photo. I figure the manufacturers have two business units one that sells machines and one that sells parts. They probably take a hit on making the machine with the knowledge they are gonna make big dollars on parts.

Word round the campfire is that inkjet is going to push toner out of the market for an evolutionary cycle. Not too much to go wrong in an inkjet. No drums, toner, developer duplex each side at the same time. Check out this bad boy YouTube - RISO HC ComColor Printer Introduction this is availabe now at 120 pages per minute. I would say the quality is marginal at this early stage but it is a sign of things to come. Especially when the likes of HP get there act sorted.

 

[Whygen]

Totally agree ref the rise of the inkjet - saw signs of this at Drupa...
If they can get the pricing right both for the hardware and consumables I think its a winner -
just gonna check out your vid

Cheers

 

[MacDaddy]

Mac

Mac

I have looked at both the KM 6500 and the Canon imagepress both nice machines.
very little difference in quaility if any maybe small text is a bit better on the Canon.
But to me the canon had more of a glossy look then the KM which made it look fake
or should I say like it was done on a copier KM looked smoother just a matter of opinon.
But the price difference is big KM much cheaper.

 

[Craig]

Whygen,
Have you gotten any closer on your decision? I completely understand your buying nightmare. I can tell you from experience that it's a daydream compared to trying to break a lease on a machine that is not performing to what the "salesperson" said. Try not to get too caught up in the price, there is a reason why one manufacture keeps telling everyone how cheep their box is, and I would be concerned how well the cheep holds out after 3 years. I've been told that "cheep is good, but good is rarely cheep" how true this has been for me.

I will agree with Random, my 8000AP is expensive, close to $400,000 and yes my lease payment is almost $7000 per month, but I operate nearly uninterrupted each month with regards to service. I have that peace of mind knowing that when my customer sends artwork at 1:00 p.m. for 500 28 page booklets that need to be on a UPS truck at 6:00 p.m. for next day delivery some ware, I can count on it. Does that mean that it's a flawless machine like Random's sarcastic comments, no. Whatever machine you own will have a problem at some point, unless you never plug it in. But I can say that my 8000AP has lived up to everything I was told it can do. Last week one day I ran 8400 sheets 12x18 100lb Gloss Cover Duplex, no jams at 1200 iph

If you do go with Canon or Xerox make sure you get the CED and go over it with a fine tooth comb. I am not sure if KM provides such a document. This will be your out if the machine does not perform up to the published specification by the manufacture. Much like the warranty on the Audi. I can't remember how detailed Canon's is but I can tell you Xerox's is rather detailed, right down to how many service call per month you should expect.

Hay Random grab a bucket - Front to back registration is +/- 0.5mm and my color shift from first to last is less than 2dE