KM 6500/6501 VS Canon imagepress 6000

[Josh]

I don't quite understand this argument...

If you're looking at an 8000 then you are not going to be looking at a 6500 as it just isn't in the same league in terms of duty cycle.

However, if you're looking at the 6500 then you're not going to be looking at the 8000 as the capital cost is about twice as much.

I think really the 6500 competes with the 260 and 700, both in terms of duty cycle and pricing.

Sorry if I've missed something, it just seems like we're not comparing like for like products.

 

[lfelton]

I don't quite understand this argument...

If you're looking at an 8000 then you are not going to be looking at a 6500 as it just isn't in the same league in terms of duty cycle.

However, if you're looking at the 6500 then you're not going to be looking at the 8000 as the capital cost is about twice as much.

I think really the 6500 competes with the 260 and 700, both in terms of duty cycle and pricing.

Sorry if I've missed something, it just seems like we're not comparing like for like products.

I see your confusion and maybe this will help?

700 and 6501e (system 7) are direct competitors, you can do an apples for apples comparison and they are very similar:-
- Print quality is excellent on both.
- Duty cycle is higher on the 6501e.
- Front to back registration is significantly better on the 6501 (.5mm both sides vs 1.0mm both sides).
- 700 is cheaper
- click cost is cheaper on 6501e, but the difference is small once you haggle with Xerox

262 (260 discontinued I think?) is a *very* different beast. Much cheaper (especially with the bustled RIP) and excellent print quality, but FTB registration is poor, duty cycle is much lower. Good machine, but not really in the same market segment.

8000AP does not have a direct comparison in the K-M range.
- It is 80ppm, not 65
- Will duplex up to 300gsm (6501e up to 250gsm)
- has a much higher duty cycle
- does not slow down on heavier weights (unlike the 700 and 6501)
- is much more expensive

Again, an excellent machine. The achilles heel, especially for litho printers, is that the print quality is not as good as the 700 or 6501e, both in absolute image terms and also due to the fact that the printed area has a gloss "toner shine". The toner shine is apparently reduced when you run the machine in "all weights" mode; however I cannot vouch for this as Xerox has not been able to reproduce this in a dem and 2x batches of printed samples we requested. Very many (end user) customers are perfectly happy with the "shiny" toner, a significant number are not and will not accept it, especially when they have both litho and digital work produced. I'm sure that Fuji/Xerox are working on this and we can look forward to a "best of all worlds product", but there are apparently underlying ownership issues of the toner technology which may need to be sorted out first.

We are apparently going to be seeing a preview of a new K-M 120ppm machine in a few days, so that will be interesting, although I understand that the 80ppm is not going to be ready until 2010, so I can't imagine the 120ppm will be ready any sooner.

I hope that helps!


Random - are you going to be manning the stand in the UK, or don't they inflict trade shows on you?

 

[Josh]

Thanks!... was actually being slightly sarcastic though

 

[Mark]

Our KM6500p bounces around too much and duplexing on anything over 80# cvr is poor.
Big solids get streaks and I think the print quality has gone downhill (we are at 141000)
You gotta watch the output like a hawk.

Good for shorter runs where color and registration aren't too important.
Creo rip has too many problems for my taste:
Spot color protection is wonky, can't print just one side on imposed files, Can't saddle stitch merged files, can't print vps files in a imposition from the creo rip, and i'm sure I'm missing more.
I guess we just expected more than it can deliver.

 

[random]

$400,000! I had to use another computer cause I just spat my drink out all over my keyboard. That is a LOT of money. You need to reevaluate your price comparison, try more like 4 c6500. Or two one with a 200 page saddle sticher and another with a perfect binder, and maybe another with a 100 sheet stapler.

The argument Josh brings up is correct. The comparison between the c6500 and DC8000AP is a bit like comparing a Carrera Turbo with a Mustang. I think the Xerox Production Marketing dude put it into context - "In digital printing there are two types of prints, good enough and better".

Pound for pound a c6500 won't beat an 8000AP so our arguments are pretty pointless but Craig bites like a pit bull high on crack.

The 120ppm machine is a montone machine, It is the 1050 replacement. I thought the 80pager was due next year, goes to show what I know.

 

[Whygen]

Had the 6501e for just a week now - we have had 1 call out - paper skew -which was resolved by an adjustment in the actual paper trays - works fine now...
Duplexes fine upto 260gsm..quality is truely excellent - better than our other machines...
Have been told by the engineer that we need "tray heaters" if we wish to run litho stocks - apparently the heaters condition the paper....? wasnt told this by the sales guys....
Creo 304+ rip works fine - needed a couple of patches on installation
Early days but very happy thus far ....looking forward to seeing the High chroma press at Total print expo....

 

[Craig]

Pound for pound a c6500 won't beat an 8000AP so our arguments are pretty pointless but Craig bites like a pit bull high on crack.

That's funny

 

[Craig]

The toner shine is apparently reduced when you run the machine in "all weights" mode; however I cannot vouch for this as Xerox has not been able to reproduce this in a dem and 2x batches of printed samples we requested.

Tell them on the demo that they need to print more than 1 sheet in AP mode in order to see the reduction in toner shine. It usually takes 2 or 3 sheets for the shine to mellow out. I'll be more than happy to print your samples and UPS them to you if you are in the US.

 

[Gene Glass]

Craig,

I'm an ex-Xerox, ex-IKON color specialist, now with Oce. One little detail that Xerox does not mention in their literature is that the 7000/8000AP gloss quality is degraded when you run in AP or AWP mode (I found this in their user guide). You can do the very same thing on the 6500/6501 - that is, you can tell the printer that you have 85 gsm instead of 300 gsm and it will run at rated speed. Surprisingly, the gloss optimization is really not that degraded.

So, from what I can gather (and from 10 years in Xerox printing systems), the AP model is not so much a hardware/software change as a marketing ploy - something Xerox is very good and clever at.

 

[Gene Glass]

Random, what procedure(s) do you use to calibrate the KM6500? There are several documents floating around and you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[random]

Random, what procedure(s) do you use to calibrate the KM6500? There are several documents floating around and you seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject.

Depends what you mean really. How do I calibrate the engine or how do I calibrate the engine to the rip?

 

[Craig]

Craig,

I'm an ex-Xerox, ex-IKON color specialist, now with Oce. One little detail that Xerox does not mention in their literature is that the 7000/8000AP gloss quality is degraded when you run in AP or AWP mode (I found this in their user guide). You can do the very same thing on the 6500/6501 - that is, you can tell the printer that you have 85 gsm instead of 300 gsm and it will run at rated speed. Surprisingly, the gloss optimization is really not that degraded.

So, from what I can gather (and from 10 years in Xerox printing systems), the AP model is not so much a hardware/software change as a marketing ploy - something Xerox is very good and clever at.

That is a foolish move to tell an operator to run 300gsm paper with the device set to 85gsm, unless it has been approved in writing by the manufacture. In all the Canon boxes I had (7) when you did this the fuser never completely fused the toner to the sheet. At first glance it looked OK but give it a scratch and it flaked right off. I am rather confident that Random would agree, there is a reason the devices slow down on heavier weights, it's to properly fuse the toner to the sheet.

One more thing the fuser assembly in the 8000AP is entirely different than that of the 8000, the parts are NOT interchangeable. That is NOT a "marketing ploy", not any more of a ploy than saying the 6500 has a 500 print engine inside a new shell so therefor it the same machine. (Which I am sure is not the case... I hope!)

 

[JasonLongley]

Options

Options

Hi - new member here and I know this topic arises quite a bit from looking through older threads but would appreciate any help...

I am currently looking to print a lot of photographic work on a regular basis and so quality is very important, I will also be printing commercial work. I am currently investigating the KM6501 (new creo rip) and the Canon 6000 (non-VP)

Have run a range of images through the KM 6500 in tests demo's on their older Fiery rip and quality was good and excellent when using the newly released Creo rip. Only reservation is that it only duplex's 256gsm (doh!)
I am reliably informed that we can run stocks upto 300gsm single sided but will have to "work n turn" if we want it double sided - I am worried that registration may suffer if we do this???

Has anybody got experience of any current KM 6500 or "about to be released" KM 6501 machines (when I say "current" I mean 6500's that have been purchased in the last 6 months - the current ones apparently have been upgraded compared to early releases) Can the current machines regulalry do 300gsm+ single sided (on a work n turn basis)???

Also I have been told that the KM6500 with Latest rip is exactly the same as the about to be released KM6501 - except that the colour of the box is slightly different ????

Has anybody got experience of the Canon 6000 (non VP) is it the same as/good as the VP engines (obviously the 6000 cant run at a constant speed on heavier stocks)??? and will it reliably duplex on 300gsm on a regular basis?

The Canon is coming in 35% more expensive than the KM...decisions, decisions.....

Would appreciate any advice

Cheers[/QUOT

I have a lot of experience of both these devices as I am the colour consultant with Ikon & we provide both solutions. My personal opinion is that the 6500 provides an adequate level of quality & in my experience is less problematic. There are other devices which could provide you with a suitable solution, for example the Canon C1+ is the same engine & quality as the 6000 & has a fifth colour which is effectively a UV coater. Ricoh also have a new box which may be an option. I would be happy to provide you with further information/guidance if you wish. My e-mail address is [email protected]

 

[JasonLongley]

Thanks guys, we also print a lot of greeting cards (personalised) on 300+ gsm board and although I really like the KM machine with the Creo+ rip i'm just wondering how much of a ball ache "work n turning" everything on higher weight stock is going to be? In my experience it used to add 10- 20 mins to each job (aligning the registation)....KM have told me that the registration is exstremely tight when work n turning only usually takes a couple of sheets to line up...? anybody got experience of this?

The Canon6000VP is the best option for personalised cards, I recently placed one for exactly that need & the customer is putting 330g card through without any problems. If you require further info e-mail me: [email protected]

 

[random]

Also I have been told that the KM6500 with Latest rip is exactly the same as the about to be released KM6501 - except that the colour of the box is slightly different ????

I said on another thread that there did not appear to be too much difference between the c6500 and c6501. That was probably a bit quick. There have been some fundamental changes to engine particularly to deal with an inboard/outboard imbalance problem that some c6500's experienced. Although resolvable in the field the modifications that have been implemented will completely cure this. Also they have given the power to the user to adjust this also. This is a chronic problem on the DC5000 (not sure about the AP) but the adjustment resets on the 5000 after the power is recycled…….Duh.

Some modifications were implemented in later c6500’s but the C6501 has some unique additions so the c6500 and c6501 are not identical. Not only that there have been many improvements to our strong point, finishing options. Most of them seem to fix problems that I haven’t seen so good for them.

So I guess the 6501 is the 6500AP.

I am currently looking to print a lot of photographic work on a regular basis and so quality is very important, I will also be printing commercial work. I am currently investigating the KM6501 (new creo rip) and the Canon 6000 (non-VP)

You might want to wait for the High Chroma version. This has a new type of toner which has the widest color gamut in the (toner) industry and aparently rivals inkjet.

 

[Damianc]

Canon is front-to-back .5mm registration--same as Xerox 7000/8000. I believe that the 5000 and the 700 are not as tight. 1mm, I think.

Delta e is under 4 on all the Canons.

The main difference between the VP and the plain C6000, is the power. The VP versions require 3-phase, while the C6000 runs 208v, single phase. The C6000 slows to 42ppm on stocks above 220gsm, while the VP versions maintain full rated speed at full quality to 300gsm. All RIPS are available with the C6000, including the A1100, an entry level Fiery, which is not available on the VP.

The AP versions of the Xerox also run at full speed up to 300gsm in all-weights mode, but there is a trade-off (matte finish, rather than glossy) above 170gsm unless you slow down."more matte appearance on substrates heavier than 100lb text (170gsm up)"*
* From Xerox blurb

From a Canon color guy

Xerox is 2400 x 2400 one-bit depth, derived from a 600x600dpi raster
Canon is 1200 x 1200, 4-bit-depth.
The consequence is that the Canon has more info, ergo, more detail. Check to see which can produce the cleanest 4pt. type, and which has the most detail in shadows, for comparison.
Most professionals concede that the Canon has superior image quality, "the look and feel of offset," is Canon's claim, which you can see from the flat toner laydown, (20% smaller toner particles than Xerox) as opposed to the 3-D effect of other toner-based machines. All the rest, reliability, price, is up to whoever is selling and servicing the equipment, though these are inherently reliable machines, designed as they are for production environments. Some Canon dealers may train users to install their own ORCs (operator -replaceable components), for greater uptime.

 

[TnT]

You might want to wait for the High Chroma version. This has a new type of toner which has the widest color gamut in the (toner) industry and aparently rivals inkjet.

Is there any info on this? I'm interested in finding out more. Image quality and no oil are the two most important factors in my purchasing criteria.

 

[Craig]

Why not look at an Indigo?

 

[TnT]

As said in another thread, money and volume aren't there right now to sustain an Indigo, otherwise in a heartbeat I'd have one.

 

[lfelton]

I saw the high chroma version of the 6500 last week at TPE and it was interesting. The people on the stand didn't have a lot of info and there was no idea given about release dates. It seemed to me that this was more of a technology showcase, rather than an actual firm product.

As mentioned, the people on the stand didn't really have much of a "why you want one of these" type story to tell, just some prints (normal vs HC) to show. What did catch my eye was a picture of a woman holding a handbag. A bright orange handbag - pretty near to pantone orange in fact. Having operated a litho press myself, I know that there is no way in hell you can get pantone orange out of CMYK. Somehow HC manages it. Makes you think...

But TnT... I wouldn't be waiting for this one if you need a machine pronto. I have no idea how far away from release it is, but certainly not in the next few months.

As far as Indigos go, I would love to love them as I worked for HP in California for many happy years, so we really looked at these closely. Indigos require a big investment in operators and training and the output (and running cost) is very dependant on how good the operator is and whether s/he is "on the ball" at the time the job is printed. Very much like a litho. The 6-colour printing gives you a fantastic gamut, but the 4-colour is pretty run of the mill IMO (most especially the series 1 machines). The operating costs are also significantly higher than production toner machine. Great machines for the right market, but the perceived quality difference between them and production toner machines is really a hang over from the first generation toner machines.