Konica 951 vs 6120 vs OTHERLINES

[OriginalScuddy]

We still run alot of NCR on a B&W Konica 951. I Like it but we are missing some key features, Does have true air feed in the paper deck, doesn't have a real RIP, doesn't print up to the quality of some of my local competition.

I am guessing but what i am seeing being printed is what comes off my color presses, but in Black only. Is this what alot of you do? Delete the B&W for a 3rd color press?

6120 is newer, looks like they upgraded the LED print head, need to order some test prints. See how it looks and feels.

Any help would be amazing. I like to stay with Konica as we can service in house, but like to know what other small shops are doing. Space is my biggest issue.

 

[Ynot_UK]

The Pro951 (and its successor, the 1100) is not rated to print onto coated stocks, whereas the 6120 is.
We have a Pro951 and struggled with NCR on it, although that was before replacing the transfer belt, which remedied a number of other issues, so I may try again, as you mention you run a lot of NCR on yours.
We don't do a lot of NCR, but always run it as a greyscale/BW job on our C4080.

 

[kslight]

We don’t run a lot of NCR or even a ton of BW only jobs…we are space limited so we don’t even own a dedicated BW machine anymore. What we do run is on the color machine.

 

[jwheeler]

@methogod , we are a county in-plant and run at least a pallet or more of NCR each week. We have three 6136's (which is the same as the 6120, but faster). We had Ricoh's in the past, then KM 1250's for about 6 years, and now the 6136's for about 2.5 years. The KM RIP and interface on this newer series is awesome. The vacuum feed is very reliable and the solid blacks are great. All that to say, we actually run a majority of our NCR jobs on digital duplicators. Any two-sided NCR jobs or numbered jobs run on the KM 6136's. There are several benefits to the digital duplicators (BTW, we've had Ricoh's, Duplo's, and Riso's, and the Duplo's were probably the best):

1. The cost per print is extremely low on a duplicator, even lower than the CPC we pay on the 6136's.
2. Every digital press manufacturer (KM, Xerox, Ricoh, Canon) will say their machine can handle NCR, and they can for a while. However, the coating from NCR comes off on the rollers/belts over time can can cause feeding or imaging issues. The duplicator has a very short and straight path, uses no heat, and uses a liquid ink instead of toner, so this isn't an issue for them.
3. They have a small footprint (the size of an office copier) and use a standard 110 outlet.
4. They are a low-cost investment (only $3,000 - $8,000 U.S. per machine, brand new).
5. They need very little maintenance, most of which can be done by the operator since there aren't many components to the machine, and no heat.

There are some things to be aware of for digital duplicators:

1. They make an internal 'master' similar to silk-screening so they only work for static images (no variable data, or if you need to do black out areas on the other copies)
2. They only have one feeding source and they are usually limited to 1,500 sheets input/output (whereas we can load up all 3 vacuum feed drawers on our KM 6136 for longer unattended runs)
3. The ink is oil based and takes a while to dry, so you need to handle the paper like it came off an offset press.

All this to say, if we didn't have the digital duplicators, yes, the 6120 or 6136 is a much better upgrade to the 951 because of the vacuum feed and upgraded RIP/interface and we could consistently run NCR there - knowing we would occasionally have to call in service to clean some internal components. Recently, we had 3-4 months without a duplicator because the new ones were stuck on a boat somewhere, and we had to run all of our NCR exclusively on the 6136's and it was fine.

 

[OriginalScuddy]

@methogod , we are a county in-plant and run at least a pallet or more of NCR each week. We have three 6136's (which is the same as the 6120, but faster). We had Ricoh's in the past, then KM 1250's for about 6 years, and now the 6136's for about 2.5 years. The KM RIP and interface on this newer series is awesome. The vacuum feed is very reliable and the solid blacks are great. All that to say, we actually run a majority of our NCR jobs on digital duplicators. Any two-sided NCR jobs or numbered jobs run on the KM 6136's. There are several benefits to the digital duplicators (BTW, we've had Ricoh's, Duplo's, and Riso's, and the Duplo's were probably the best):

1. The cost per print is extremely low on a duplicator, even lower than the CPC we pay on the 6136's.
2. Every digital press manufacturer (KM, Xerox, Ricoh, Canon) will say their machine can handle NCR, and they can for a while. However, the coating from NCR comes off on the rollers/belts over time can can cause feeding or imaging issues. The duplicator has a very short and straight path, uses no heat, and uses a liquid ink instead of toner, so this isn't an issue for them.
3. They have a small footprint (the size of an office copier) and use a standard 110 outlet.
4. They are a low-cost investment (only $3,000 - $8,000 U.S. per machine, brand new).
5. They need very little maintenance, most of which can be done by the operator since there aren't many components to the machine, and no heat.

There are some things to be aware of for digital duplicators:

1. They make an internal 'master' similar to silk-screening so they only work for static images (no variable data, or if you need to do black out areas on the other copies)
2. They only have one feeding source and they are usually limited to 1,500 sheets input/output (whereas we can load up all 3 vacuum feed drawers on our KM 6136 for longer unattended runs)
3. The ink is oil based and takes a while to dry, so you need to handle the paper like it came off an offset press.

All this to say, if we didn't have the digital duplicators, yes, the 6120 or 6136 is a much better upgrade to the 951 because of the vacuum feed and upgraded RIP/interface and we could consistently run NCR there - knowing we would occasionally have to call in service to clean some internal components. Recently, we had 3-4 months without a duplicator because the new ones were stuck on a boat somewhere, and we had to run all of our NCR exclusively on the 6136's and it was fine.

what if you had no click costs? we self maintain.
Just thinking I can upgrade/add a C6100 full boat and run my B&W on that machine, get rid of the B&W only engines. Move my C2070 to the front where i still run a older C6501 and C7000. Consolidate.

 

[jwheeler]

what if you had no click costs? we self maintain.

We don't have click costs on the digital duplicator, but there is a cost per print based on the cost for the inks and masters...same as you have a cost per print based on your cost for the toner and other consumable parts.

Just thinking I can upgrade/add a C6100 full boat and run my B&W on that machine, get rid of the B&W only engines.

Of course you could do this, however, I'd caution running large amounts of b/w only on any color press.

What is your volume of NCR or b/w jobs? Do you expect there will be long runs of just b/w, or lots or shorter runs broken up with color jobs in-between?

Move my C2070 to the front where i still run a older C6501 and C7000.

Those C6501's just won't die! That machine has to be 12-14 years old by now!

 

[OriginalScuddy]

951 upper fuser failed, just ran 30M clicks all black on the C6501 of course had to be 8.5x11 and stapled.

I try not to run NCR on the color machines unless its a color job. 951 runs NCR fine we do get some buildup but nothing crazy. I think the 1250/6136 are better engines, and better cooling post fuser so you get less toner build which I find annoying.
Not super high volume, we do alot of direct mail and everyday printing.

 

[Craig]

We run single sided on a Riso GD7330, no masters. It WILL NOT print on the back side of NCR, just runs and smears. Duplexed are on 6136 or V180 if color is needed. We self service the Riso as there is not much to it.

 

[OriginalScuddy]

We run single sided on a Riso GD7330, no masters. It WILL NOT print on the back side of NCR, just runs and smears. Duplexed are on 6136 or V180 if color is needed. We self service the Riso as there is not much to it.

thats the inkjet version, not the drum/old school type.

 

[Craig]

thats the inkjet version, not the drum/old school type.

Correct, had the old drum and master and it was a pain in the butt. Plus you can number as you print with inkjet, or have different copy on different parts. Way more versatility.

 

[jwheeler]

Correct, had the old drum and master and it was a pain in the butt. Plus you can number as you print with inkjet, or have different copy on different parts. Way more versatility.

Did you do a cost comparison of average cost per print with drum/master compared to inkjet? What were your findings?