Konica C6501 suitability opinions please

elixir

Member
We are considering purchase of a used C6501 for production of VDP 4/4 postcards on cover and card stock, primarily 12x18 & 13x19, printing from PDFs composed & imposed through Fusion Pro Desktop.

We are mailing service providers with a background in black/white VDP. I’m most interested in guidance from other users on this machine and its suitability, durability & on-paper performance. Why this machine? It is used by others in this area, who have produced cards for us. We however need better price control & turnaround times. And there are a number of these available.

We would likely require somewhere between 2500-5000 sheets of above size per week.

So, my questions:

Is this machine suitable for the task described?

What should we reasonably expect as throughput speed for the above?

We would likely self service this machine – we are comfortable with this approach on other equipment, is anyone else running without a service contract?

Any particular machine configuration to look for, or to avoid?

Advice on what to look out for in a used machine?

I’m sure I’ll have more questions…

Thanks in advance!
Elixir
 
Hi, this machine should be able to handle the volume you mentioned. I own a small printshop as well as Business Equipment Sales/Service business so yes i will offer you a machine on the top of the opinion. It will print nicely on paper stocks about 65 ppm, respectfully slower with 12x18, probably about 30 ppm, will slow down on cardstocks, max it can take 300 gsm. The only machines that do not slow down with cover weight are the machines with 2 fusers or monster ones that will chew pretty much anything. The paper path and whole inside configuration is really simple, ridiculously short paper path is good - you will not have 12 sheets to pull out in case of a jam. If you plan to run anything over #80 cover, get one with 2 tray LCC as bottom tray of it is straright path trough the machine and it is only tray that can be loaded with #100 cover or the by-pass tray with it's limited capacity. Volume you had mentioned - LCC is a must plus Finisher (figures - as you have an input capacity, you should have an accessory to collect printed sheets). External RIP is obviously better option, these machines can have CREO or EFi. We bought a Bizhub Pro C65HC which is pretty much a 6501P with high chroma toners. For extra $10 per toner this machine reaches almost all RGB gamut. I liked these so much that we decided to include these in our selling portfolio.
In used machine, you should look out for:
the printcount as #1, nomatter what anyone will say to you, even advertised as "under contract / well maintained machine"
you do not need somebody else's 2-3 million prints made on it, I am sure you will be happy to put your own. Please take my word - for every dollar you save buying nicely/aggressively priced printer with 2-3 million prints, you will spend 3 in near future.
Look at gears and internal compartments, they should be clean, gears should be white. this would be an evidence of machine living in nice clean environment which what you want for a used machine. Check Drums and other maintenance componens live levels - last thing you want is to run and start buying drums/developers/belts/fuser rollers in a month after buying a machine, if you are technically inclined, pull the drums out, check that they are as new as counters say so same goes for a fuser and transfer belt. Remember this is $35K+ unit, every part is priced accordingly so buy something that you can run for another 50,000 pages without major investment in to parts/service.
As far "I will offer you an machine part of the message" we just sold Bizhub press C6000 but received same Bizhub C65HC as ours, 229K on the meter, Finisher+LCC, with CREO (I can arrange for EFi if you want but for some reason when new, CREO equipped machine was like $9000 more) Price $16,000, if you need it crated, I can arrange that for about $350
My approach to this is simple: If I would not buy this for myself, I would not take it for resale and i would not buy it with over a 1 mil.
Let me know.
Roman.
 
We have a 6501, almost upto 600K on the meter. We have had it since new. I would say that we had a lot of problems with the machine when it was new, but as we have put impressions on it, things have gotten better. The machine is more stable if you can keep it running, when you have long periods of inoperability thats where you start spending money on parts. We haven't seen a tech since July this year.

Couple of things to know:

1. If the machine doesn't have it already, make sure you get weights put on the "feeder tire mechanisms" of the drawers. We had many issues with speed and feeding until the weights were added, this was especially true with cover weight stock.

2. Calibrate every day, and sometimes before every job. You will want to get ES-1000 spectrometer.

3. Make sure you get one of the high capacity feeders, otherwise you will be putting paper in all the time and when feeding out of drawers 1-3 the paper curls a bunch more.

4. Also, depending on the stacker you have, you may end up pulling paper off all the time as well. The machine will stop at a certain point until the paper is removed. So leaving the machine to run all night doesn't exactly work unless you have the correct stacker for that purpose.

5. The usage meter for the parts is interesting, they will go above 100%, so unless you have an issue with printing quality, don't replace any parts. We have parts right now that are at 329% and going strong.

6. I'm not sure I would run one of these machines without a contract, you will need to keep parts on the shelf as well as toner, all of which adds up real fast. When our machine had less than 400k on the meter, we would see a tech about once every 3 weeks. You do the math, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't.

7. We have found that using a light table is the best tool to use for front to back registration.

8. We don't have the dongle to be able to add a monitor to our fiery, so we had to use a separate computer to run the rip. Just a heads up. No one told us till delivery day.

9. If you will be folding the cards you are printing, I would avoid putting toner on the fold, it will crack. The paper might crack as well, depending on the quality of paper. We score everything to minimize cracking.

10. FYI, when we have been approached to upgrade our machine they have only offered $8k for it.

That is all I can think of right now. Good luck.

Josh
 
Just a couple of quick points in addition to your other responses

Although the machine is spec'd for 300gsm (100# cover) be aware that this is simplex only. Although I know of many shops who regularly run 100# cover auto duplex by telling the machine it is 256gsm, 100# cover is outside design specifications for auto duplex.

If your workflow is going to be VDP then be sure you get an external RIP. For the C6501 this will most likely be the IC-305 Fiery or the IC-304 Creo. These RIPs will consume VDP formats from FusionPro. Many folks prefer the Creo for VDP, but its as much a matter of preference as anything. Since you are buying a unit which has been out of production for a while your choice may be based on what you can find. If you make the move to save a few bucks with the embedded Fiery which bolts on the back of the unit you will have to save merged files out of FusionPro as PDF files, or the RIP will not take them. These files will be larger and use more resources (which the embedded Fiery has less of) and take longer to process. You may have to break up your runs into several smaller files for printing.

On the self service front, I'll only say that of the 100+ units I could point to on a map I can only point to a few without a contract, and those are 2nd or third line backup units, not the one someone is counting on to make a living. Cost aside, how long can you afford to be down while you try to figure out whats wrong and get those parts? Are you going to be good with passable image quality because you are not sure how to make it better? Routine maintenance is one thing, but if you are not on contract and you have to call out a tech on time and materials you could find yourself questioning whether its time to replace the machine rather than fix it. Maybe that's two years in, maybe its 2 weeks. Only you know your tolerance level. You might consider putting it under some kind of a service plan to start with just to make sure its up to snuff and see what the maintenance looks like before going it alone. If you have the option to have the machine inspected by a KM or one of its dealers before you buy, do it. They will give you a rundown of what the machine needs before it can be placed under a service agreement. An ounce of prevention...
 
We've been using a 6000 for ~1.7 mil. clicks, along with a C8000 (some 3.2 mil.)
My advice for C6:
- get a machine only if you have technical support available
- you must have a color controller with a ES-1000, otherwise you will not get consistent colours
- feeding rollers, lower fuser belt, tensioners for transfer belt and dust geting inside are your constant enemies! :)
 
Thanks, this is all useful information. While we do have dealers in this area to provide service, the quotes for click charges have been unworkable. For example, at best it is $0.04+ for 8.5x11 page single side, 2x that for 11x17, 2x THAT for duplex, with 12x18 & 13x19 quotes not forthcoming. And they have not been willing to provide any info on minimum volumes, or contract length.

Do those click charges seem out of line?

Thanks!
 
We had Xerox WorkCentre 7335 under the contract once, 11c per page any size, no min, no max, everything covered bumper to bumper, would be less if I'd committed to some quantity, like 5K or 10K per month. Xerox is greediest one of all. From what I learned hanging out on few printing forums, industry's average 6-8 cents per page any size for units of this grade. It is usually on a higher side if you did not buy the machine from them or you trying to enroll used machine, logically thinking - if you didn't give them a chance to load you up with few grand per month lease, they tend to be a little less forthcoming/flexible on "per click" prices. When we sell used B/W machines locally and take them under the service service contract we charge 1c per page on LTR, if customer go shop for new, they may get 0.7-0.8 cents. It it never to really rare that I hear someone saying "Hey that $0.002 is a deal breaker". In your situation, if you can/should push for 8c per side of max size, it is on higher side of an average but nothing extraordinary. Sure if you take on Xerox IGen4 most likely it will be less, add acquisition cost (lease or buy) and numbers will be insane unless you have insane print volume. Duplex is double, sure, it is just another page for the machine to image, realistically, what is behind you being surprized? What would be the difference for the machine between imaging another page or flipping the one that still inside?
Are you talking to Konica Minolta itself? You're not the business office and it is not a office copier, most of these run max size than cut in any print shop, why do they even start a conversation with LTR size click? It, most likely, will be a tiny fraction of what you will be printing... Do they know that you are the printer? Do they know that you asking about something that is not a office Toypier?
Try calling KM 1-800 number directly. Tell them that you are printer (which undermines a quantity and that you'd be printing 12x18 size mostly) see what they say.
Another thing to expect - nobody will give a contract on used machine blindly, they will send a tech to check it, make sure that is OK to start with. If/when you go for it, before you pay for the machine, get a S/N, meter reading, supplies life printout from the seller, show it to your dealer and ask what can you expect as a "Roll on" expense (it is about the same as your car insurer will pass the car trough inspection before issuing a full collision policy with difference that they will mark a damaged spots if any and let you go where your dealer will charge you to fix the issues because in case of a car they responsible pretty much for appearances and Copier dealer responsible for mechanical performance) I imagine if machine of your choice will have Drums, fuser, etc less than some percentage of life left, they will insist that they'd be replaced upfront at your expense obviously - that may not look pretty so please figure this part out before spending anything. Buy smallest print count you can afford, you still will save tenth of thousands VS new and save huge on Service Contracts Enrollment bill.
To sum it up, no, the prices you were given not out of line but yes kinda expensive-ish, depend what did you tell them... Everything is good or bad, cheap or expensive, hot or cold is in comparesment..
If you consider 4c per LTR to be expensive, what is not? Do you know someone who pays 2? Even if yes (which I believe is hardly possible with machines of this size, Is his situation same as yours? i.e. rolling under a used machine with same quantity commitment? I would imagine it would have a huge difference if you'd try to enroll used machine with 3 million clicks and machine with 300,000 clicks as well.
I own Copier service company and a Printshop, if it would not be for constant equipment flow, I'd put my Konica Minolta Bizhub c65HC on contract for 8c per max size, hell yeah, we sell 30c to 45 c per LTR retail, 15 to 25 wholesale, double all that for 11x17, 80c for 12x18 on text, $1 for Covers, double all that for duplex, even if some may say 8c per click is expensive-ish, I could not care less. I make money, let someone who would theoretically support it make some as well and let me run the business VS fixing my own printers.
 
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Thanks for the input. Just a correction though - reviewing notes I had the wrong click charge, it is actually $0.06 per pg, letter size, one side. Speaking with others I've found that what constitutes a click is often an elastic definition.

I agree, I would much rather that someone else service the printer freeing us to produce rather than repair. However, providing a monthly guaranteed amount plus additional click charges to a service organization while unsure of the offsetting income side is disagreeable.

Actually, if we could continue to outsource that would be ideal. But as mentioned in another post regarding the perils of outsourcing, we have found that many customers are so fixated upon right now estimates that ten minutes is too long for them to wait - gotta get back to their social media, don'cha know.

Thanks!
 
And another question -

I see that the drawers 1-3 are 256 gsm paper weight max, which is fine since that is the max for duplexing as well. Is any functionality (other than capacity) lost by not having the PF-602 option, drawers 4 & 5?

Thanks!
 
For 6500, tray 1-2-3 are for thin papers only. In theory, yes, they can be loaded with thick paper, but actually they're not usable in real world. I found sometimes hard to use even the LCT, and feed the bypass instead.
The main issue is with the feeding rollers, that are very inconsistent and need to be cleaned very often. We tried all solutions at hand - liquid soap being the best found for them to work.

With C8000, this was no longer a problem.
 
So you would consider the PF-602 a necessity with heavier papers then? Some have mentioned the bypass as something not to be terribly useful, with its own set of issues.
 

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