Konica C8000 OK for an older machine?

[BigSi]

Hi there,

Looking around for a replacement for my old Xerox DC5000. I'm not flush with funds. As these are getting older now I can pick one up at a relatively good price.
I also have a Xerox 700 here (which is rubbish) how does the Konica compare for registration, image straightness, rolling solids, colour consistency over a long(ish) run.
(with both my 5000 and 700). All the usual stuff. One thing I do like about the Konica is it is spec for 350 gsm stock. Unlike most of the light production machines (300 gsm). One thing I don't like is availability of parts. (might be ok now but 2-3 years time?). This is an ongoing problem with my DC 5000.

I realize service is a big factor but from past experience this is one thing it is very hard to gauge until after you have had a machine for awhile.

Any advice much appreciated. Thanks Simon

 

[cec-prepress]

I can't say how it compares to the Xerox, but from 3 years experience, you just listed the big 3 weaknesses of the C8000 hardware (we've run 2 of them for 3 years, Creo FEs): Registration (impossible to get all 4 corners lined up front-to-back), image straightness (possible, but doesn't hold for very long and takes a while to get set up correctly) , color consistency (color changes during run, the color check the machine runs at set intervals to keep consistency slows the machine down so we have it set to higher numbers between checks, but when we did try lower numbers it didn't seem to make much difference). We're high altitude, low humidity, high-volume, and service in our location is not great either, so your results may vary.

 

[lfelton]

The "E" field upgrade is worth having, so negotiate hard to get that as part of the deal. It takes roughly 2 (engineer) days, so they won't want to do it, but I'd persist. It does includes some changes that MAY have already been field upgraded on the C8000, but only if the service company were on the ball. Piece of mind that your 8000 will have got the gremlins fixed if nothing else. There is a major firmware upgrade included (which Konica won't pay for as a FOC field upgrade) and a major upgrade to the Fiery RIP.

We've had it done and my operators say that it has made major improvements. You also need to remember that it has to be "Color Cared" by your service company every time the dev tanks are changed. That's not a quick job and not included in the click charge service contract (or at least not in ours), but I'm told it makes major improvements to colour consistency.

I'd always recommend that anyone trying to achieve consistent quality invest in environmental control. Insulated room with air conditioning / heating, plus humidifying and dehumidifying. It keeps the environment within what Konica calls the "Q Zone". In other words, the machines will run in a wide range of temperature and humidity, but only really produce good work within very tight temperature and RH ranges. It sounds expensive (and it is), but not when you consider how much you're spending on new digital presses!

 

[BigSi]

I can't say how it compares to the Xerox, but from 3 years experience, you just listed the big 3 weaknesses of the C8000 hardware (we've run 2 of them for 3 years, Creo FEs): Registration (impossible to get all 4 corners lined up front-to-back), image straightness (possible, but doesn't hold for very long and takes a while to get set up correctly) , color consistency (color changes during run, the color check the machine runs at set intervals to keep consistency slows the machine down so we have it set to higher numbers between checks, but when we did try lower numbers it didn't seem to make much difference). We're high altitude, low humidity, high-volume, and service in our location is not great either, so your results may vary.

Thanks. It sounds like the c8000 is not such a great machine. I guess the problem is more a "comparison" problem, how does this machine stack up against similar priced machines? not try to compare it to anything about 3 or 4 times e.g. any of the newer xerox machines. But it dose sound like I'd be buying a very expense boat anchor.

 

[BigSi]

The "E" field upgrade is worth having, so negotiate hard to get that as part of the deal. It takes roughly 2 (engineer) days, so they won't want to do it, but I'd persist. It does includes some changes that MAY have already been field upgraded on the C8000, but only if the service company were on the ball. Piece of mind that your 8000 will have got the gremlins fixed if nothing else. There is a major firmware upgrade included (which Konica won't pay for as a FOC field upgrade) and a major upgrade to the Fiery RIP.

We've had it done and my operators say that it has made major improvements. You also need to remember that it has to be "Color Cared" by your service company every time the dev tanks are changed. That's not a quick job and not included in the click charge service contract (or at least not in ours), but I'm told it makes major improvements to colour consistency.

I'd always recommend that anyone trying to achieve consistent quality invest in environmental control. Insulated room with air conditioning / heating, plus humidifying and dehumidifying. It keeps the environment within what Konica calls the "Q Zone". In other words, the machines will run in a wide range of temperature and humidity, but only really produce good work within very tight temperature and RH ranges. It sounds expensive (and it is), but not when you consider how much you're spending on new digital presses!

Thanks for this. Excuse my ignorance but what is a "E" field upgrade?. I here what your are saying about an "Enviromental" control room but on my current turnover it would take me 6 months to pay for it. Most digital press in New Zealand don't seem to be set up like this, fairly temperate climate. You don't think it's just an excuse from Konica as to why you are getting a lot of colour variation? Xerox have never tried this one on me. In fact they told me there was a design fault on my 700. I guess that is honesty for you!. (Problem with reds). Have to run in 150-200 lots and give the machine a 3-4 minute rest between them. Unbelievable. Thanks.

 

[lfelton]

Towards the end of the life of the C8000 they started shipping an "E" version which had the upgrades and was rated at a 50% increase in duty cycle. No idea what the E stands for, "Enhanced" maybe. Here's a link to the UK press release:

bizhub PRESS C8000e – an award winning digital press gets even stronger - KONICA MINOLTA | United Kingdom

A c8000 is field upgradeable to a c8000e and that's what we had done.

I hear what you are saying on the cost of the environmental control and you are right ALL vendors have a nasty tendency toward lazy responses about quality problems (how many of us have heard "it's your paper"?). However, having run machines in both types of environment, it's definitely true that keeping the environment tightly controlled increases the machine MTBF and makes it possible to keep consistent quality. It also means that you don't have some BS excuse when you DO have problems.

 

[atprinter]

Hi BigSi

Is Xerox 700 really that bad...

I thinking getting one of 700 soon to replace the old, old dc5065, I know 700 has issues, I guess every machines has its problems here and there, and 700 already 2 to 3 models behind the new one... but I am doing low volume only, not sure should I go for it... so good to hear your opinions on 700 before I sign the deal...

Thanks

 

[BigSi]

Hi there. I guess it comes down to what your comparing it with. I have not used a dc5065 but I know that in quite a few area's it is not as good as my old dc5000. The only area that I consider it better is rolling large coverage (tints and solids). Actual print quality is slighly better (it's nice not getting oil streaks) but registration (sheet to sheet) and maintaining straightness is worse. Hope this helps.

 

[atprinter]

Thanks BigSi

Paper curling problem, especially on specialty (metallic) and recycle stock(300gsm). I just had a tech came in check the dc5065 machine, he also bought his own stock to test, he said machine is fine and the curling on both edges is within the spec... and saying could be moisture environment cause the paper curling etc... well, I have dehumidifiers in the room, so that should not be a main issue I guess. To me it is not good when you stack up 50 sheets put through guillotine cutting, loosing 2 to 3mm on sides because of the curling!

Is 700 has that issue? I know 700 has built in decurler, paper is flat either printing recycle or coated stock, am I right? Since we both in NZ, may be your experience on 700 is more accurate to me...

Thanks again.

Hi there. I guess it comes down to what your comparing it with. I have not used a dc5065 but I know that in quite a few area's it is not as good as my old dc5000. The only area that I consider it better is rolling large coverage (tints and solids). Actual print quality is slighly better (it's nice not getting oil streaks) but registration (sheet to sheet) and maintaining straightness is worse. Hope this helps.

 

[BigSi]

Good to hear from a fellow Kiwi. I have not noticed any major curling on my 700. but having said that I keep to fairly standard stocks. Anything a bit different I tend to put threw my offset. Yes my Dc 5000 does tend to curl a bit (you have probably seen my old 5000 on trade me) Yes I have had the "within spec's" line before. Some Xerox's tech's are much worse than other's. Neither of my Xerox's are in moisture controlled rooms. How do you get on getting credits from Xerox? I have long since given up. It's like hitting your head against a brick wall. Go's something like this. Running a 6 up DL on a SRA3 sheet. x2 are printing with a mark in the solid. Tech say's it's going to be 48hours before he can get the part to fix. Job is urgent. The only way around is to run extra sheets and throw out a 1/3 of the job. Tech promises credits for extra sheets run. What a joke. They never appear on the invoice. Sorry I have had my grizzle for the day, feel better now. ta Simon

 

[atprinter]

I did get the credits few times and was long time ago. It depends on your luck like buying lotto... so I have also given up, don't bother to ask.

I'm getting Streaks/marks prints from time to time(often!!), and yes, only way around just like you is to run extra sheets and throw out 10% of the job, imagining the job required expensive stocks...

Xerox does have nice machines and wish they can understand our situations and be more supportive.