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Konica vs Xerox

Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.
I have 2 companies. My idea was to start off small by servicing my current client. Once I start doing more than 40 000 prints per month, i can move the office machine to my signage business and use it as an office machine, then move onto a production machine for the print shop.
Am I being shortsighted?
 
Good luck getting 40,000 per month out of an office box, and get a bunk for the tech to sleep in!!
 
Craig, i see you use Canon. What Canon machine would you suggest?

Dreece, I used to use Canons.... never again. I have switched to Xerox and not looking back. Mine is a DC 8000AP.

I just talked to a shop owner who was less than happy with his Canon ImagePress 6000VP (I think it was the VP... can't exactly remember though). He has had many Major problems and has a tech in his shop almost daily. He said it was fine for the first 100k or so then went down fast.

What substrates do you see running through whatever color box you are looking at? (Uncoated text, coated text/covers) Are you planning on doing work that requires the sheets to register? (business cards, brochures that fold) How long do you intend on leasing? Will your volume increase, more than likely it will.

You need to make sure you are looking at more than just the price. It won't do you any good to have a cheap box that is not productive, believe me I found out the hard way. Cheap is good, but good is rarely cheap!
 
The KM C65HC is a sRGB device capable of hitting a wider color gamut which will give you more florescent like output. What you see on your monitor is what you should see on the output as opposed to your standard RGB to CMYK simulation output which can vary. If the C5501/C6501 can't hit the color/quality of your 10,000 sheet job than the C65HC would be worth a look, but if does there is no need for the C65HC. I hope this helps.
 
KM C6501 vs Xerox 700 & 5000

KM C6501 vs Xerox 700 & 5000

I approach the purchase of a digital production press with some trepidation but following a recent mailshot from Xerox I was impressed at the huge steps taken over the last 15 months.

Having had demos and trials on both the Xerox700 and C6501 machines any colour issues are certainly down to the rips and in the case of Xerox the operators/demonstrators not being "printing" people, openly admitting they know nothing about screens or colour.

The Creo rip shone on both machines when it came to colour with a much wider colour gamut than is ever achievable with traditional CMYK inks without the mixing of a special colour such as a Rhodamine+Magenta or running a 5th colour. The screen angles of the Xerox were a bit weird and the 200 screen made the images look flat, moving to a 150 as one would expect increased the contrast and produced a much sharper image. For those unfamiliar with screening this sounds completely counter intuitive! The Creo rip on the Xerox produced solid fine lines in a simple 50Y to 100Y 100M graduation and try as they it wouldn't go away. The same image on the KM was perfect and totally indistinguishable from the litho version. The Fiery rip was flat and lost detail despite being callibrated to my stock, light grads and pastels burnt out completely, maybe if you are printing strong colours thats not an issue.

The registration of the KM was line perfect with the 0.25pt crop marks being crisp and despite me being mean and laying them down in all CMYK plates they were in perfect register. The Xerox increased the line weight to double and there was irregular fit problems on all 8 crop marks over the SRA3 page. Fit problems manifested themselves on the Xerox with the Magenta and Cyan being a full dot out on a 100C100M solid. The build quality may have a huge amount to do with this register issue, as the KM C6501 has a steel carcass and the units are really held together solidly.

The Xerox had stray toner toner around the cartridge loading bay this is accentuated by the machine being light coloured and 'plasticy'. The C6501 was able to handle the board easily... both machines handled 300gsm coated and uncoated without a blink! The C6501 also handled 330gsm/450mµ without any problem... sorry if any of the Konica Minolta guys read this... I was lying! The C6501 had almost twice the 40,000 clicks the Xerox had so their excuses about requiring servicing were falling on deaf ears ...and when I take time to go to a Xerox showroom I don't expect a machine to need a service!

Also Xerox, after my 2 hour drive and 3 hour demo with a cheque book in my pocket demo a coffee would have been nice!! <<< listen and learn! Haha! The Xerox dealer kept calling the machines 'copiers' which was really aggravating everyone else as they were calling them 'digital presses', this may be the problem... Xerox are copier people through and through. Although with the iGen in their stable I find this sad.

The toner of the KM6501 is less shiney and more like lithos inks whilst the Xerox 700 is shiny. Maybe some people like this gloss, but I want to make the product as indistinguishable as possible from my litho produced goods.

A demo of the highly acclaimed Xerox 5000 curled my board like a Smarty tube by applying unacceptably high temperatures to the fuser. Worse still the toner is ridiculously shiny with the black almost looking like a virko coating, this of course would disappear under a varnish or laminate. The worse thing about the 5000 is the colour gamut is not as wide as other machines of it's type and the yellow/scarlet grad came out dull and lifeless. This was not down to any rip issues or stray cyan dots but the raw colours of the toner. The magenta toner is more 'bluish' than the bright 'rhodaminish' tones of it's competitors, although you may get better browns!

All in all... I'm going to spend my money on the Konica Minolta C6501. It's marginally more expensive and the click charge is a tiny bit higher but I am focussed on quality and my customers deserve the best and I'll absorb the click charge.

Anyone know anything about UV varnishing and foiling with this kit? :)
 
The C6501 also handled 330gsm/450mµ without any problem...
...

Anyone know anything about UV varnishing and foiling with this kit? :)

Did you test the model with high capacity feeder or you fed the paper manually?
I heard that lamination (foiling) is much better on KM compared to Xerox (we own X700, which still has problems with lamination although using 6-times more expensive gmp superstick for digital and the almost $30k Foliant laminator). For uv coating i believe the unbeatable offer is the one from graphic whizard for VividCoater Micro. (both offline) In gemeral i suggest avoiding expensive inlne finishers and suggest investing in better offline production, which can last for decades (while printers change in 2-4 years).
 
KM C6501 vs Xerox 700 & 5000

KM C6501 vs Xerox 700 & 5000

I used the high capacity feed and even with the 450mµ board it was going through at 18 sheets per minute... we did fifty copies whilst I was still marvelling at it's ability to handle the board. I didn't duplex and will do that on another pass.

Thanks for the suggestion for offline finishing, I'll go down that route and check out Vivid straight away.

Is lamination the same as foiling? I'm a Brit!!! I want silver and gold on my cards!

Clear film lamination is becoming unacceptable over here in the greetings card market which is why I've opted to seek a UV varnishing unit instead.

Cheers
 
Go with the Xerox

Go with the Xerox

I am biased because I am an agent for Xerox, but this product I believe has the edge over the Konica. At the same time, you have to have a good team behind the product. Make sure you sales rep has experience, has been in the industry for 10 + years, you've read the CED, and you've met the tech who is going to fix the 700.

Once you do all that and feel comfortable then you are good to go.
 
I am biased because I am an agent for Xerox, but this product I believe has the edge over the Konica. At the same time, you have to have a good team behind the product. Make sure you sales rep has experience, has been in the industry for 10 + years, you've read the CED, and you've met the tech who is going to fix the 700.

Once you do all that and feel comfortable then you are good to go.

This isn't a stab at the xerox guy but, out of interest, what do you beleave give's the 700 the edge? Not to interested in hearing about service as this geographical. More a engine on engine comparison.
 
KM C6501 vs Xerox 700 & 5000

KM C6501 vs Xerox 700 & 5000

I am biased because I am an agent for Xerox, but this product I believe has the edge over the Konica. At the same time, you have to have a good team behind the product. Make sure you sales rep has experience, has been in the industry for 10 + years, you've read the CED, and you've met the tech who is going to fix the 700.

Once you do all that and feel comfortable then you are good to go.

I am assuming you did read my appraisal of each machine! The Xerox was completely inferior in build quality, the technology is old and the dealer was completely inept. One of the most irritating issues was a dealer who insisted in 'rubbishing' the KonicaMinolta company at every opportunity and didn't even know that his company has a new CEO as from July 1st, former President Ursula Burns. Unforgivable in my opinion.

The simple fact that you refer to the fact that I should get a good relationship with the tech who is going to fix the 700 makes me kind of nervous.

I want the machine to be a production unit. I'd be really interested if you could actually list the factors that give the Xerox machine the edge rather than making an "it's better" statement.

The name of Xerox should mean something and I was expecting to have a great team behind the product however my experience of the Xerox team in the UK to date is that they are a bunch of old guys trapped in the 80's.

None of this gives me any confidence. Sorry, but it's just how I find it!

In comparison the KM guys are switched on and the sales guys know all the updates and the techies know about colour, printing, and board as well as their machinery.
 
I used the high capacity feed and even with the 450mµ board it was going through at 18 sheets per minute... we did fifty copies whilst I was still marvelling at it's ability to handle the board. I didn't duplex and will do that on another pass.

Thanks for the suggestion for offline finishing, I'll go down that route and check out Vivid straight away.

Is lamination the same as foiling? I'm a Brit!!! I want silver and gold on my cards!

Clear film lamination is becoming unacceptable over here in the greetings card market which is why I've opted to seek a UV varnishing unit instead.

Cheers

eaglen - you're probably already 100% up on this issue, but make sure that you understand the interaction between "polymerised toner" (i.e. with wax) and UV coating. "Standard" machines and "standard" coatings have major problems with this, but many manufacturers are switched on to the issues involved and apparently have solutions (i.e. IR heaters, specialist coatings or a combination of both).
 
Thanks lfelton! This has been a bit of an issue which only a few of the coaters seem to have addressed properly. I'm seeing the Duplo and Morgana varnishing machines (or liquid laminators!!!). Any additional information will be greatly appreciated!!! I need to kill the sheen of the toner on matte uncoated board and add an overall high gloss to the coated stocks. This was one of the great selling points of the 6501 in that the toners appeared more like a litho ink than the Xerox.
 
The name of Xerox should mean something and I was expecting to have a great team behind the product however my experience of the Xerox team in the UK to date is that they are a bunch of old guys trapped in the 80's.

What the hell is it with Xerox on the other side of the pond? In the US, with my experience they are second to none. When reading post from outside the US they seem to be stuck in the "Used Car Mode". I just don't get it!
 
What the hell is it with Xerox on the other side of the pond? In the US, with my experience they are second to none. When reading post from outside the US they seem to be stuck in the "Used Car Mode". I just don't get it!

Craig, unfortunately the situation in Europe is not bright. They only move when they receive a phone call or similar.
But in general there are problems also with Xerox on worldwide level -model 700 has a serious mistake that when printing on coated papers with full coverage, almost 1/3 of paper has different color tone and finish then the rest. The problem lies in the first circle of fuser, which starts overheated. I reported this problem in February, later on I have been informed that this is a worldwide problem being resolved as top priority.
Well, we still print like this and sometimes throw away the "ugly" parts and print almost 40% more.
The situation is still "being resolved".
So much for Xerox excellence...
 
Craig, unfortunately the situation in Europe is not bright. They only move when they receive a phone call or similar.
But in general there are problems also with Xerox on worldwide level -model 700 has a serious mistake that when printing on coated papers with full coverage, almost 1/3 of paper has different color tone and finish then the rest. The problem lies in the first circle of fuser, which starts overheated. I reported this problem in February, later on I have been informed that this is a worldwide problem being resolved as top priority.
Well, we still print like this and sometimes throw away the "ugly" parts and print almost 40% more.
The situation is still "being resolved".
So much for Xerox excellence...

I have never heard or seen the problem. With over 50 sold in my state, would know of this issue. Every printer will use full bleeds and do as much at one time as possible. Coverage does not make a difference.
You need to use your TSG!
 
I have never heard or seen the problem. With over 50 sold in my state, would know of this issue. Every printer will use full bleeds and do as much at one time as possible. Coverage does not make a difference.
You need to use your TSG!

Try to print on coated 80 lb stock a very dark image, then check about 5 inches from top lead side against light. I was told this is a worldwide problem, though I wouldn't be surprised if i am being pulled by staff here searching excuses. Such thing as TSG unfortunatly doesn't exist in Europe :(
 
Try to print on coated 80 lb stock a very dark image, then check about 5 inches from top lead side against light. I was told this is a worldwide problem, though I wouldn't be surprised if i am being pulled by staff here searching excuses. Such thing as TSG unfortunatly doesn't exist in Europe :(

I don't get this problem on our 700. Never have and the samples we run have never had this issue either. You tell the service you spoke with other people with the 700 and they do not have that problem.
Start a new thread detailing the problem and see how many people have that problem. If none exist, show this to your service tech or management.
 

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