Legal ?

[MacDaddy]

If customer brings a job in and you have a moral or difference of opinion, on the topic the are wanted printed. Is it legal to turn it away? Just wanted some other thoughts we can't agree in our shop.

 

[daveholmes]

If you live in a free country then it is your decision who you deal with or don't deal with.

I can always deal with an annoyed customer however i don't think I could deal with myself if i let my moral or my ethics fall down

 

[Deleted member 16349]

If customer brings a job in and you have a moral or difference of opinion, on the topic the are wanted printed. Is it legal to turn it away? Just wanted some other thoughts we can't agree in our shop.

You should get real legal advice and not look here.

You are supplying a service to the public and for you to refuse service to someone, for any reason, might be viewed legally as discrimination.

 

[gordo]

If customer brings a job in and you have a moral or difference of opinion, on the topic the are wanted printed. Is it legal to turn it away? Just wanted some other thoughts we can't agree in our shop.

You should ask a lawyer.

However, I do believe that you are not required to do anything that is illegal. For example, if the customer wants you to print counterfeit money you are within your rights to turn the job down. Or if the job contains copyrighted that you know the customer does not have the rights to. In both cases you would be held legally liable.

If the job is legal and you do not want the job (e.g. pornography) - the usual way of handling the situation is to quote the job so high that you won't get it.

best, gordo

 

[VladCanada]

Just add a religion/faith aspects, Gordon, and you told us a complete answer.
All my respect!

 

[printshopgirl]

Reminds me of this:
I, Cringely » Blog Archive » FedEx Kinkos Won’t Print Our Christmas Card - Cringely on technology

 

[Muddy]

I had a similar request a few years ago for a series of pornograhic posters. XXX full nudity and .........intercourse etc. I didn't like the idea of printing them so I told them some outrageous price ($75000 or something like that) and a very long turnaround time (6 months). They went away on their own

 

[KevinC@EFI]

Just add a religion/faith aspects, Gordon, and you told us a complete answer.
All my respect!

Dangerous territory... Would it be "legal" for an Athiest printer to turn down a job printing the Bible (or whatever inter-faith scenarios you can imagine)? I'm not sure if opening that debate here would be a good thing though.

If a job would be disruptive to your business (internally or externally), you should have a good basis for declining to accept a certain job. Just as a carwash can refuse to wash a clunker that's falling apart and may damage their equipment, can't a printer refuse a job that will damage their reputation or cause employee turmoil?

Gordo's comment on using your quoting process to make these issues moot is probably the safe bet in any case.

Kevin.

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Dangerous territory...

Gordo's comment on using your quoting process to make these issues moot is probably the safe bet in any case.

Kevin.

Having an unusually high price as a barrier could also be considered as discrimination. The fact that it is offered as a method to avoid such business can be used as proof that it is discriminatory.

Just because some customers will walk away does not mean that some other customer might sue.

Legal advice is required. Legal issues are not about common sense or right or wrong, it is about what the law is and what a court will decide.

 

[gordo]

Having an unusually high price as a barrier could also be considered as discrimination. The fact that it is offered as a method to avoid such business can be used as proof that it is discriminatory.

Just because some customers will walk away does not mean that some other customer might sue.

Legal advice is required. Legal issues are not about common sense or right or wrong, it is about what the law is and what a court will decide.

Yes, legal advice is required.

That being said, increasing the price to avoid business is common practice in the industry. The given reason for the increase in price is not to avoid the job per se but to cover the additional expenses that will be incurred by the nature of the job (potential legal liability issues, increased facility security, possibly the hiring of contract workers etc.).

Has anyone ever sued a restaurant for its "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" policy?

best, gordo

 

[Deleted member 16349]

Yes, legal advice is required.

That being said, increasing the price to avoid business is common practice in the industry. The given reason for the increase in price is not to avoid the job per se but to cover the additional expenses that will be incurred by the nature of the job (potential legal liability issues, increased facility security, possibly the hiring of contract workers etc.).

Has anyone ever sued a restaurant for its "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" policy?

best, gordo

I think a printer out your way or in Alberta was taken to court and lost. Common practice is no protection.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

What if the piece you are ask to print is clearly rasist, extremist, or the such? Can a printer be liable for printing a piece that is violating laws, or encouraging illegal activity?

 

[Vee]

You can turn away any job you want, and you don't have to explain why.

Simply say we are not interested in bidding on this job, at this time.

Just because you're a printer doesn't mean you HAVE to accept every job on the market.. and again, you do not have to explain yourself or your business decisions to every customer that walks in the door.

 

[gordo]

What if the piece you are ask to print is clearly rasist, extremist, or the such? Can a printer be liable for printing a piece that is violating laws, or encouraging illegal activity?

Yes.

gordo

 

[Al Ferrari]

legal vs. ilegal discrimination - Google Search

Al

 

[mattbeals]

You have the right to refuse service to anyone. You need not disclose the reason. Or, in a more subtle way you can do as other said, bid it high. There is nothing that compels you to accept work. Best to ask a lawyer though. You may want to look at a terms and conditions clause of some sort that gives you a legal out for anything your company deems inappropriate, offensive, etc.

When in doubt, always ask a lawyer. Cheaper to ask permission than to pray for a judgement in your favor.

 

[chevalier]

Every country, state, and city has it's own laws and regulations that regulate such things. In the US on the whole - if you don't want the business you have the right to turn it down on any grounds with the exception of protected legal classes (race, gender, etc.). The national side of things is generally well known but many states and cities have protected classes such as guaranteed equality for L/G/B/T and other classes. Racists or racist organizations for example are not a protected legal class in the US. Racism isn't illegal but you can turn down racist work. Legal pornography works the same way - it isn't illegal but it isn't protected. Religious materials (ALL of them) on the other hand are protected and turning down a job or jacking up the price on religious pretense is without question completely illegal. If you think that printed materials contain illegal images or promote illegal activity you should silently call the authorities. It is my understanding (I could be misinformed) that distributing/printing racist literature and symbology such as the swastika is illegal in Germany, France and many other European nations.

My personal experience...
I used to work at a company that did a lot of flyers, table tents, and posters for strip clubs that contained lots of nudity. Employees and any potential new hires were approached whether or not they had issues with printing the materials. If an employee had an issue they were accommodated by not being required to handle this specific work. It was made absolutely clear that any waste/makeready/leftover materials were to be destroyed and under no circumstances could they be distributed or hung-up in the plant. It worked extremely well - money was made and everyone was happy.

 

[Muddy]

Having an unusually high price as a barrier could also be considered as discrimination. The fact that it is offered as a method to avoid such business can be used as proof that it is discriminatory.
.

I have to disagree. Under this logic I can sue everyone that I deal with both personally and professionally if I feel their prices are too high.

Me - How much for that laptop?
Sales guy - $1000
Me - For those specs?!?!?! That's too much. You'll be hearing from my lawyer. How dare you charge these kind of prices

Me - How much for those 4 tires?
Sales guy - $1200
Me - For those?!?!?! That's too much. You'll be hearing from my lawyer. How dare you charge these kind of prices

 

[chevalier]

I have to disagree. Under this logic I can sue everyone that I deal with both personally and professionally if I feel their prices are too high.

Pretense and context are important. Yeah, you can sue saying you were discriminated because X or Y but if you cannot convince a judge or a jury of your peers that you were illegally discriminated against you'll loose and end up paying both sides legal fees. Look up legal standing.

 

[rich apollo]

As long as you are not part of a government agency and are not receiving government moneys, I think discrimination would be very difficult to prosecute. I believe that free speech not only includes what we may "say", but also what we may refuse to "say". However, I don't think one can make a blanket statement as to the legality or illegality of refusal of service. You say that the piece in question goes against your moral/ethical beliefs. That issue would need to be explored more fully.

For example, in the case brought up about an atheist refusing to print publications promoting Christian doctrine - I'm pretty certain someone could make a solid legal case defending that. But, someone of extreme racial bias refusing to print something of an ethnic promotional nature might be more difficult to defend.

In court you would have to be able to demonstrate that your decision was not based on the race, creed, color, sexual-orientation, or other protected status of the potential client.

You could go the route of "go-away pricing". You could also be honest with the prospective client. An open discussion of why the piece makes you uncomfortable would probably go a long way toward defusing the situation.

On a lighter, but related note, I would encourage all in printing to read the attached document authored by our old friend Ben Franklin. Ben got into some hot water for publishing a sea captain's ad that openly excluded clergymen from signing on as passengers. There is an interesting discussion of the topic in the pages following Franklin's publication.