Matching Kodaks on Press

[Seagull]

Hello all, David here in need of some proofing explanation and guidance. First of all I am no color management expert but I do know my stuff some what. Let me start by telling you that at my shop we (prepress and litho) have learned and have successfully fingerprinted our 40" press many times with different inks and substrates and can match our Epson proofs to press pretty much dead on 95% of the time.

My question is, We receive Kodak Approvals from our client that they want to see matched on press, presently because we were not working side by side with the company suppling us the Kodaks we would have to color correct their files until our Epson matched the Kodak. So I contacted the company that created the Kodaks to ask them how I could get away from having to color correct their files all the time, They told me that they would need a printed copy of our fingerprint and our icc profile that was created from the fingerprint so they could create a setup that would match the color space of our press fingerprint, so that is what was done.

A new job arrives and I output a proof, No Match, scans were sent untagged so I don't know how they were prepared either. I took the supplied scans and Assigned the Kodak profile to them, then converted them to our press profile, still No Match.

Can some one explain the proper steps that should be taken to have color management work between us, all input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[gordo]

Since your press work aligns with your Epson, why not make your Epson the target for their Kodaks? You may only need to do a few test proofs, rather than run the job on press, to confirm the alignment once they've done whatever they need to do in order to make their proof match your proof.

best, gordon p

 

[schenkadere]

Since your press work aligns with your Epson, why not make your Epson the target for their Kodaks? You may only need to do a few test proofs, rather than run the job on press, to confirm the alignment once they've done whatever they need to do in order to make their proof match your proof.

best, gordon p

I agree. Run out their preferred profiling chart and send it to them...let them create their own profiles to match your successful proofs.

Kodaks are tough. The highlights are always lacking defined dot and realistic gain and the micro beads of the donors never allow for a deep or rich shadow. I had an XP4 for years...maybe there were some improvements on the later models. CMYK was great, but the recipe colors always left something to be desired and the use of the white donor was a thorn in my side...years of feed problems and wasted time and money...and no solid answers or corrections by Kodak. I'm glad to be rid of it except for the ability to proof on metalized mylar coated SBS...not that those proofs had any level of true accuracy anyway.

 

[Mike Strickler]

Matching Press on Kodak

Matching Press on Kodak

Hi there,

This workflow is a tangled mess, an unfortunately a very common situation. There is one problem with the proposed solution: It depends on your getting THEM to do something different, and that will likely never happen, or the solution will be implemented incorrectly. But if everyone does want to cooperate, can you all agree to target a press standard and stick to it? You have a sheetfed press and a good #1/2 sheet. Run to the numbers for GRACoL. It's not hard. Paper color a bit nonstandard? The GRACoL profile's white point can be edited (just send a paper sample here). Now proof to this profile, give the profile to the guys with the approval (and the name of press stock, since they'll need to get some to laminate to) or simply tell them to proof to GRACoL. I can also send you my control strip for you to print on the proofs; print it according to instructions (with color management), send it back, and I'll verify whether either of your proofing systems is accurate.

Do you see the difference in approach here? Everyone would be aiming at a fixed standard rather than trying to achieve matches between multiple "unique" systems, which may drift, may not even be profiled/characterized accurately. Proofing systems especially need to be fixed points in color control systems, and "fingerprinting" them is at best a desperation measure. They must be VERIFIED as accurate to the standard they are aimed at, whether it's GRACoL, SNAP, SWOP, or other mutually agreed color space. If they cannot accurately match this standard they need to be fixed or replaced. Your printing can likewise be standardized. Yes, presses drift a bit, but this is nothing compared with the variables introduced by systems of multiple nonstandard, inadequately controlled and characterized devices. You are all measuring with different rulers, and they are all made of rubber.

Please feel free to contact me for further assistance.

Very best regards,

Mike Strickler
MSP Graphic Services
IDEAlliance G7 Expert
707.664.1628

 

[Colorblind]

I agree with Mike here. At some point, you should think about implementing Gracol/G7 at your shop. Datasets, profiles and methodology are available online. For a content provider (advertiser) it's a lot easier to deal with than managing multiple profiles per printing shop or blindly supply RGB files hoping for the best conversion at the printer. Also as you mentionned, inkjet proofers and even higher-end proofing systems are being used by advertisers so if both of you agree on a standard and keep your color workflow monitored, everybody's proof should look pretty similar. For now, since the CMYK images they supplied you were untagged, I can only assume that they don't know much about color management theory, I could only suggest that you supply your profile to your customer, let them adjust their proofing system accordingly.

 

[Seagull]

Gentlemen, Thank you very much for all your expert input. Since my post I have contacted my KA supplier and at this time they are creating a set up that will match a proof I sent them, but this proof only has a couple of photos from the job we are working on and their Gracol 7 target on it. This was done before I had any replies except for gordo, and thanks gordo for the quick response. After reading all the replies though it is very clear now about what exactly has to be done and why, correct me if I am wrong, they have to create a set up that will match a proof of my finger print target that I output and for any future jobs that they will supply us they have to use this set up for all of their proofing from the start of their projects.

A little info about our fingerprinting, We work with the company called TGLC they are a Quebec based colour management company. They have done and trained us to create fingerprint's that are inline with Gracol 7 standards, as I stated in my post we have done many fingerprints with different inks and substrates and are very successful at matching our proofs, our litho department has to print every job by the standard established from the fingerprint with proper grey balance, when a job is on press and they have to deviate from the standards established the job is stopped, we do not colour correct on press for any job, even if it is a press approval with client present, what ever has to be tweaked out of standard is done back in prepress and new plates are made.

Mike, I would like to take you up on your offer for the proofing verification, can I call you using the number on your reply and if so when is a good time for you.

Again Thanks!