Need Assistance Picking a New Press

[streetsnake]

Not another dreaded, "Help me Pick" thread but I'm still a relative newbie to the digital print world and was hoping the experts could weigh in. I'm a small printer that mainly focuses in on foiling/engraving/etc., and I don't know much compared to many of you. A couple years ago we purchased a used Xerox C70 and when it is working well, it is fine, however, we occasionally run into issues with roller/fuser marks on our reloaded (foil/thermo/engraving stock) which obviously ruins the piece. Also, as we've tried to grow our business a bit, I have not been impressed with the heavy coverage postcards, brochures, etc. I usually end up having to sub those out to a partner-printer. We have no maintenance contract, so we are purchasing/servicing the press and consumables. With that said, we need to continue our main book of business of running reloaded foiled/thermo/etc. but also would like the ability to produce high quality heavy coverage postcards, booklets, etc. and anything that may "come-up". I reached out to Xerox and a multi-brand salesperson and are looking at the the Xerox v280, Ricoh c7500 and Canon v800. I believe all will easily be able to run our 60-80# cover stock without issue. It then comes down to running envelopes, heavy coverage & higher weight paper (nothing really large...probably #110 cover), saddle stitched booklets, etc. As I can imagine, service is of utmost importance and also what am I not thinking about? All are fairly comparable from a monthly lease perspective, except I believe I might be getting a little more (header/footer trimmer) with the v280 and and is a smidge less expensive. On the flip-side, to add in the "beyond CMYK" kit for Xerox is a significant increase to the monthly lease and would likely never come close to covering the added expense. To give you an idea, we are currently in the process of running a booklet job of 1100 and this is by far an away our biggest job for booklets. We occasionally do runs of envelopes for some of our accounts but the C70 is not good, as it leaves corner creases and does not look very professional. I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone...continue on what we normally do but take advantage of potential opportunities for growth. Thanks in advance.

 

[kslight]

I have a Ricoh 7210x. Love it but a couple counterpoints as you’re optioning equipment out.

I think the 5th color is mostly a waste unless you already have the work for it. We have it and rarely use it.

I do not like inline booklet makers, with this purchase we instead got an offline unit (duplo dbm150) and it’s so much better and more flexible size and thickness wise than any inline finisher I’ve had. Hand feed, but several hundred + books hand fed is not as much trouble as you might think.

I especially do not like inline slitters on printers, had a really bad experience with all these gadgets on a former printer. I do not recommend it, and the cost just doesn’t make sense for me. You can spend on the addons, have a lot of problems, then throw it away and start over every time your lease renews. Or, just buy an offline machine, which will probably last decades with very little service.

Envelopes are a breeze for me, but the caveat is you have to open the flaps on them. Still, for several hundred + at a time it’s nbd.



Service is definitely key, I work with Ricoh direct and they are quick to come out and take care of us….machine is also self serviceable for many common parts, which we like.

Collect some test files and paper and print them on each printer you’re shopping for.

 

[Shawnd]

The 7200 will run #10 envelopes flap closed, they will have a slight refold at the end but I got mine down to where it is barely noticable.

As mentioned check to see who has LOCAL service, that is #1. Most of these boxes can print pretty good these days. With what is happening at Xerox I wouldn't touch them with a 10 ft pole. I would check out KM and Canon.

You should check out the Ricoh 7500e version, it will have the guts ready for 5th color if you decide to upgrade to it down the road.

Video on Flap Closed #10 envelopes on 7200:

 

[SoggyWinter]

My Xerox Versant drums ordered in March just shipped. If you fall in love with Xerox hardware, consider Fujifilm if they have service in your area. Otherwise, I'd recommend a Ricoh C7500. You can get offline laminators for foiling and stuff.

 

[gazfocus]

I don’t have experience with the Ricoh or Canon (I’ve heard some not so good things about the canon), but currently have a Xerox Versant 80 which isn’t too different to the 280.

Like you with your C70, I love my Versant 80 when it works. The problem is, it has been so problematic, I’m always just waiting for it to break again. Thankfully I’m on a service contract but still leaves me without a press for a couple of weeks while it’s not working.

On my press I have the pro booklet finisher and the square fold trimmer. While I do find it useful (we don’t typically do enough booklets to justify an offline option at the moment), I do find it a bit hit and miss. There are adjustments for the fold position which you set for the stock you’re using, and you can make adjustments to where it staples which I find helpful. However, we have had occasions where the trimmer just doesn’t trim straight so you end up with a wonky edge on the booklet. It doesn’t happen too often and we usually just print a few extras and pick out the bad ones but I don’t think I’d like to rely on it if we used it a lot.

As for the ‘beyond cmyk’, honestly don’t bother. We looked into it because before we bought our Versant 80 we were offered a C60 with a free kit. The gold/silver are very Matt/Muted and would not be, in any way, a replacement for foiling. There are a few YouTube videos that show what the colours are like.

I do like the fluorescent colours and the white, but they are very expensive and when you’re on a click contract, you end up paying your click charge AND you have to buy for additional colour toner cartridges yourself as well (ie the extra colours aren’t covered by your click charge).

When we come to look for a new machine later in the year, I plan on speaking to Ricoh as I generally only hear good things about Ricohs, but we also used to have a Konica C3070 and absolutely loved it. They’re just a bit of a pain for envelopes as they require a special ‘envelope fuser’ which is about £3k.

 

[TJPrinter]

If all three are giving you similar pricing for the same equipment, then you’ll need to spend a good amount of time in front of each of them testing everything you use. Salespeople always stretch the truth.

I have a Versant 280 and both like it and dislike it. The biggest problem with the Versant series is that coated paper will destroy the 2nd BTR early, so if you run a lot of coated paper keep that in mind. If anyone tells you it’s been fixed or not a real issue, they are lying. The 2nd BTR is easy to change out, you just need to make sure that your service provider is willing to allow you to have a spare on the shelf. It took me far too long to get a spare on the shelf and I wouldn’t go with Xerox again unless the service contract stipulated from the start that I would have a spare on the shelf. But who wants to deal with that kind of BS.

Color is consistent on the 280, front to back registration is very good, heavy coverage on text weight and up to 16pt cover is good. Running envelopes is no problem. I do run a lot of envelopes and load trays 6 and 7 and it will run continuously as I fill the empty tray. I don’t have to let the press cool down to install a special envelope fuser and I don't have to open envelopes either. I don’t have any issues with the production ready booklet maker and I run sheets back through that were printed as two up booklets.

I’m not a big fan of having expensive finishing equipment attached to the press, I do have offline booklet maker capabilities and a Duplo DC-618 for the slitting and creasing. The jogger on the finisher is almost useless and a really goofy design, no deal breaker, but come on fix it.

The downside to the Versant compared to Ricoh and Canon is that the Versant 280 is aging, and I haven’t seen any indication that a new improved model is in the works. The Ricoh and Canon are both updated technologies. Then there’s the big question of whether Xerox is in the game to sucker print shops into signing lease agreements or if they’re in the game to improve their market position through innovation. I’m not seeing any innovation right now. If you do a 60 month lease on the Versant 280, at the end of your lease you’ll have a machine with almost 10 year old technology.

 

[streetsnake]

If all three are giving you similar pricing for the same equipment, then you’ll need to spend a good amount of time in front of each of them testing everything you use. Salespeople always stretch the truth.

I have a Versant 280 and both like it and dislike it. The biggest problem with the Versant series is that coated paper will destroy the 2nd BTR early, so if you run a lot of coated paper keep that in mind. If anyone tells you it’s been fixed or not a real issue, they are lying. The 2nd BTR is easy to change out, you just need to make sure that your service provider is willing to allow you to have a spare on the shelf. It took me far too long to get a spare on the shelf and I wouldn’t go with Xerox again unless the service contract stipulated from the start that I would have a spare on the shelf. But who wants to deal with that kind of BS.

Color is consistent on the 280, front to back registration is very good, heavy coverage on text weight and up to 16pt cover is good. Running envelopes is no problem. I do run a lot of envelopes and load trays 6 and 7 and it will run continuously as I fill the empty tray. I don’t have to let the press cool down to install a special envelope fuser and I don't have to open envelopes either. I don’t have any issues with the production ready booklet maker and I run sheets back through that were printed as two up booklets.

I’m not a big fan of having expensive finishing equipment attached to the press, I do have offline booklet maker capabilities and a Duplo DC-618 for the slitting and creasing. The jogger on the finisher is almost useless and a really goofy design, no deal breaker, but come on fix it.

The downside to the Versant compared to Ricoh and Canon is that the Versant 280 is aging, and I haven’t seen any indication that a new improved model is in the works. The Ricoh and Canon are both updated technologies. Then there’s the big question of whether Xerox is in the game to sucker print shops into signing lease agreements or if they’re in the game to improve their market position through innovation. I’m not seeing any innovation right now. If you do a 60 month lease on the Versant 280, at the end of your lease you’ll have a machine with almost 10 year old technology.

Good points, as many of the others have had too. Thanks to everyone thus far. The Xerox sales rep kept pushing that it rips in 10 bit and will provide a much better product?? Also, he said that the fuser temp runs "cooler" versus other press and that appeals to me because of running reloaded media with thermo, foil, engraving/ embossing, etc. the majority of the time. The Ricoh/Canon rep said that the C7500 could not run envelopes?? We don't do them often but when we would do them I'd want them to be nice and not have to fight the set-up and try to remember what I did to get the best finished product. Our space is on the smaller side, so to bring in additional equipment for other add-ons is not appealing, although I do understand that stand alone products would likely last longer/work better. The advice on the older technology is helpful as well...i guess it has been around for awhile hasn't it. What about the Ricoh between vacuum fed versus roller fed. Is that a big benefit? Again, we have never gone about 110# but that doesn't mean would wouldn't especially if the press would open the doors to additional opportunities. Because the majority of our stock we run is reloaded with varying thicknesses because of foil, embossing, etc., does anyone think one press would be better than another?

 

[pippip]

Would the c7500 not be a model up from the V280 and v800? Surely that should be the c5310?

We're in the market this year to replace our v80. I'm really hoping there's new models arriving during the summer trade shows.
The v280, KM c4070 and c5310 are all three years old and previous generations of each have been spaced three years apart. Fuji haven't reached us yet.

I find the v80 a great all rounder which suits us in how we operate. Majority of our jobs are short run, various stock types and size and envelopes all in and out daily. Yes it has it's flaws but once you know them you can be prepared.
I will keep an open mind and at the end of the day money may be the deciding factor (we're in capital city so service on all three isn't an issue).

 

[Shawnd]

I would wait to see what gets released at Drupa before buying this year, that will be the latest and greatest.

 

[kslight]

Good points, as many of the others have had too. Thanks to everyone thus far. The Xerox sales rep kept pushing that it rips in 10 bit and will provide a much better product?? Also, he said that the fuser temp runs "cooler" versus other press and that appeals to me because of running reloaded media with thermo, foil, engraving/ embossing, etc. the majority of the time. The Ricoh/Canon rep said that the C7500 could not run envelopes?? We don't do them often but when we would do them I'd want them to be nice and not have to fight the set-up and try to remember what I did to get the best finished product. Our space is on the smaller side, so to bring in additional equipment for other add-ons is not appealing, although I do understand that stand alone products would likely last longer/work better. The advice on the older technology is helpful as well...i guess it has been around for awhile hasn't it. What about the Ricoh between vacuum fed versus roller fed. Is that a big benefit? Again, we have never gone about 110# but that doesn't mean would wouldn't especially if the press would open the doors to additional opportunities. Because the majority of our stock we run is reloaded with varying thicknesses because of foil, embossing, etc., does anyone think one press would be better than another?

Air fed drawers are essential, wouldn’t buy a printer with out them.

I run envelopes on my 7210 all the time. Flaps open, produces the best results for me.

You will need to test your foiled / embossed media through the machine before making a decision.

 

[NORAM]

Not another dreaded, "Help me Pick" thread but I'm still a relative newbie to the digital print world and was hoping the experts could weigh in. I'm a small printer that mainly focuses in on foiling/engraving/etc., and I don't know much compared to many of you. A couple years ago we purchased a used Xerox C70 and when it is working well, it is fine, however, we occasionally run into issues with roller/fuser marks on our reloaded (foil/thermo/engraving stock) which obviously ruins the piece. Also, as we've tried to grow our business a bit, I have not been impressed with the heavy coverage postcards, brochures, etc. I usually end up having to sub those out to a partner-printer. We have no maintenance contract, so we are purchasing/servicing the press and consumables. With that said, we need to continue our main book of business of running reloaded foiled/thermo/etc. but also would like the ability to produce high quality heavy coverage postcards, booklets, etc. and anything that may "come-up". I reached out to Xerox and a multi-brand salesperson and are looking at the the Xerox v280, Ricoh c7500 and Canon v800. I believe all will easily be able to run our 60-80# cover stock without issue. It then comes down to running envelopes, heavy coverage & higher weight paper (nothing really large...probably #110 cover), saddle stitched booklets, etc. As I can imagine, service is of utmost importance and also what am I not thinking about? All are fairly comparable from a monthly lease perspective, except I believe I might be getting a little more (header/footer trimmer) with the v280 and and is a smidge less expensive. On the flip-side, to add in the "beyond CMYK" kit for Xerox is a significant increase to the monthly lease and would likely never come close to covering the added expense. To give you an idea, we are currently in the process of running a booklet job of 1100 and this is by far an away our biggest job for booklets. We occasionally do runs of envelopes for some of our accounts but the C70 is not good, as it leaves corner creases and does not look very professional. I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone...continue on what we normally do but take advantage of potential opportunities for growth. Thanks in advance.

If you haven't already purchased a press and depending on size requirements, I would look at this entry level press powered by Memjet delivering up to 1600 x 1600 DPI with 35% less ink usage compared to other inkjet printers. Self cleaning option so no maintenance. It is called Simply Inkjet and they have East Coast and West Coast offices. I think the contact is [email protected]. Worth a look; I heard they offer a 4 color press for around $200,000

 

[Printer4life]

Not another dreaded, "Help me Pick" thread but I'm still a relative newbie to the digital print world and was hoping the experts could weigh in. I'm a small printer that mainly focuses in on foiling/engraving/etc., and I don't know much compared to many of you. A couple years ago we purchased a used Xerox C70 and when it is working well, it is fine, however, we occasionally run into issues with roller/fuser marks on our reloaded (foil/thermo/engraving stock) which obviously ruins the piece. Also, as we've tried to grow our business a bit, I have not been impressed with the heavy coverage postcards, brochures, etc. I usually end up having to sub those out to a partner-printer. We have no maintenance contract, so we are purchasing/servicing the press and consumables. With that said, we need to continue our main book of business of running reloaded foiled/thermo/etc. but also would like the ability to produce high quality heavy coverage postcards, booklets, etc. and anything that may "come-up". I reached out to Xerox and a multi-brand salesperson and are looking at the the Xerox v280, Ricoh c7500 and Canon v800. I believe all will easily be able to run our 60-80# cover stock without issue. It then comes down to running envelopes, heavy coverage & higher weight paper (nothing really large...probably #110 cover), saddle stitched booklets, etc. As I can imagine, service is of utmost importance and also what am I not thinking about? All are fairly comparable from a monthly lease perspective, except I believe I might be getting a little more (header/footer trimmer) with the v280 and and is a smidge less expensive. On the flip-side, to add in the "beyond CMYK" kit for Xerox is a significant increase to the monthly lease and would likely never come close to covering the added expense. To give you an idea, we are currently in the process of running a booklet job of 1100 and this is by far an away our biggest job for booklets. We occasionally do runs of envelopes for some of our accounts but the C70 is not good, as it leaves corner creases and does not look very professional. I'm trying to kill two birds with one stone...continue on what we normally do but take advantage of potential opportunities for growth. Thanks in advance.

FYI - The Canon imagePRESS V900 Series does a great job on booklets and envelopes. Encourage you to take look and have a demo.

 

[NORAM]

If you haven't already purchased a press and depending on size requirements, I would look at this entry level press powered by Memjet delivering up to 1600 x 1600 DPI with 35% less ink usage compared to other inkjet printers. Self cleaning option so no maintenance. It is called Simply Inkjet and they have East Coast and West Coast offices. I think the contact is [email protected]. Worth a look; I heard they offer a 4 color press for around $200,000

correction on Email - [email protected] or [email protected] - they are now integrating into existing press lines in addition to the standalone unit

 

[gregbatch]

I would take a look at the Ricoh 7X00 series. Running CMYK over silver gives you an endless number of metallic colors. You may find that it fits well into your product offerings.

 

[MPNB]

Our 7200 has a very hard time with envelopes, even with the "Envelope kit". Color consistency on anything is also an issue.

With regard to the 5th station: the overprint of silver or white in 1 pass only works on coated stocks, otherwise it will be a 2 pass operation and it wont register perfectly.