NEED HELP - Fuji PJ plate vs Azura plate

[hazzmatte]

We are trying to decide between the Fuji PJ plate which is a conventional CTP plate and the Azura TS plate.

1. It there much difference in cost between the two when it comes to chemistry?

2. Is system maintenance much greater with one vs. the other?

3. For those using the Azura plate already - how much gum do you burn through?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Just changing gum as we speak. I usually do about a 20 liter can once a month. When half empty swap it for a half filled can of water and let the system run while washing off rolers and buildup on coggs. Write a couple emails, then turn the system off till it drains. New can in and ready to run…*the how often seems to be as dependant on time as number of plates but somewere between 600-1000 605x765 mm plates to 20 liter gum.
As far as pricing is concerned I haven't a clue. I just know that it is great to have a stable easy maintenence system. As for Fuji PJ i don't have a clue.

 

[lfelton]

What Lukas said!

We switched to Azura from a conventional chemistry system last November and the difference in maintenance is just huge. From a time consuming messy job with lots of waste to... well Lukas just said what.

I think we are processing more plates to a 20l of gum (pretty much the same size plates), not sure why.

One thing I wasn't aware of is that the processor has to stay on all the time (makes sense when you think about it). It's a bit disconcerting at first, but Agfa assure me it's not running "warm" all the time, so shouldn't be using much electricity.

We were on a plate & chemistry deal before, so I can't really say off the top of my head about the chemistry costs, but my gut feeling it's got to be much lower. The haz disposal costs alone are a good saving.

 

[hazzmatte]

Lukas,

What do you do with the half full container you just took out? Is this considered the spent material?

 

[RGPW17100]

A cube is around $170. Pricy but about the same cost as the hardner/gum for conventional plates. We run ours down to less then 1/4 full. Were never instructed on the disposal and just toss this in the garbage. I will probably take a thrashing on that statement.

Ours is always online but does not run non stop. You might want to get that checked. Periodically the rollers will spin and some solution is sprayed to prevent roller sticking and drying. The heater only comes on when the plate has been sensed when the system comes on

 

[DCurry]

My old shop used the Fuji PJ plate for years - it is a very good plate, but Fuji kept running up the price. Finally we switched to the Kodak Sword plate because we were able to switch to Prinergy at the same time. The cost of Prinergy was rolled into the plate cost over 4 years and the plates were still cheaper than the Fujis.

Current shop just switched to AzuraTS plates two weeks ago. So far, so good and my manager tells me the price is good. The nice thing about these plates is that you can clearly see the image on the plate for quality control purposes, unlike other "chem-free" plates which require cleaning out on press. Haven't done any processor maintenance yet, but I expect it to be pretty simple. There are a lot fewer variables like chemistry conductivity to consider with this plate, so that should make it more stable.

 

[nycku]

I think fuji Pj is pretty good so far we are happy with it more consistent, processor is easy to maintain and economical. I have use Agfa in the past and we encounter some problem after the first chemistry change and clean-up, use a lot of replenisher and processor is hard to clean and plates is inconsistent and unstable.

 

[Prepper]

Azura vs. LHPJ

Azura vs. LHPJ

Hazzmatte,

We are currently considering the same 2 plates, from what I've researched this is what I see...please anyone correct me where wrong.

Azura is slower, 200mj/cm2 vs 120mj/cm2 for the LHPJ, will this make much difference on your machine, I don't know just something to consider.

Azura "chemistry" is just gum, LHPJ chem is like most thermal chem, so I'm told, around 12pH so can't be disposed of until neutralized? or has to be hauled away? (We are really low usage so for us that would mean about 12 gal Agfa vs. 42 gal Fuji to dispose of and the biggest reason is because the Fuji holds 7 gal in the machine).

Azura and other "process-less" plates don't have quite the resolution that the LHPJ does, and probably other conventional thermals too?

Service/Support for us, Fuji is local, for Saphira it was 5 hours away with stocking 2 hours away, don't know yet what the Agfa is for us.

Remember to check the Heidelberg Saphira also.

 

[marktonk]

Another point to consider is a thermal chemistry plate requires water so the processor will need to be plumbed. Water usage is also quite high. The Saphira Chemfree clean out unit does not require water and therefore no plumbing.

On our Suprasetter A52/A75, we run at engine speed with both plates.

On the Suprasetter, the Saphira Chemfree is rated to 250 line hybrid screen whereas our chemistry based Saphira Thermoplate PN and the PJ are rated to 400 line hybrid screen.

And as stated, Chemfree maintenance is a dream compare to conventional processors

Regards,

Mark

 

[hazzmatte]

Prepper,

We have gone with the Azua TS. It is about 4 plates per hour slower to image but it came down to the processor. We have a small shop and with conventional processor, oxidation of the chemistry would happen faster thus more chemistry changes. Also, the fuji processor is twice the size as the rinse unit for the Azua. I think the Fuji PJ plate is probably the best proven plate on the market but it is better suited for a higher volume shop with more space then we have. Getting rid of the fuji waste was also considered. We bought the whole CTP system (rip and screen ctp machine) from agfa because their plate solution was a better fit for us then fuji. We agreed to a long term plate deal also but only with a performance guarantee. My sales person said "the Azura will perform as well if not better then the PJ plate". Installation is the end of march and we are eager to see if her is correct. Thanks for the feed back!

 

[SteveAgfa]

Prepper -

You've brought up some good points.

<snip>
Azura is slower, 200mj/cm2 vs 120mj/cm2 for the LHPJ, will this make much difference on your machine, I don't know just something to consider.
<snip>

Emulsion speed vs. platesetter throughput are related, but are not quite as significant as you might think.
On some devices, there is little to no difference in throughput between Azura TS and a traditional thermal plate. With which device do you need to image, or, how many plates per hour do you need?


<snip>
Azura "chemistry" is just gum, LHPJ chem is like most thermal chem, so I'm told, around 12pH so can't be disposed of until neutralized? or has to be hauled away? (We are really low usage so for us that would mean about 12 gal Agfa vs. 42 gal Fuji to dispose of and the biggest reason is because the Fuji holds 7 gal in the machine).
<snip>

The difference is greater than you think. Azura's gum is "consumed" or applied to the plate during the course of operation, so when you get to about 1/3rd left in the jug, you remove, rinse, and replace with new. So, for a 20L jug of gum, you'll be left with about 7L (1.6 gallons) to dispose of properly. The gum has a neutral pH of about 7.

<snip>
Azura and other "process-less" plates don't have quite the resolution that the LHPJ does, and probably other conventional thermals too?
<snip>

What resolution do you need? Azura TS is rated at 2 - 98% at 200 lpi for 100,000 impressions. We have customers using Azura TS for FM20, although at run lengths typically no more than 50,000 impressions.


Good luck in your continued quest.

 

[hazzmatte]

Steve,

During my print test with the Azura plate we tested a job that we printed using the PJ plates. After comparing the 2 there was a difference in the low screen areas. The Azura had a slight "model" look in a graduated screen. The PJ plates printed smooth. My salesman said that this could be the screening used by the shop that did the Azura test plates.

What I am thinking is the Azua plate may have resolution equal to the PJ the plate itself may not be able to hold the same, clean dot as the PJ. My results are yet to be determined but it is a concern that will be looked at closely when the equipment is installed.

 

[Prepper]

Hazzmatte,

Looks like we will be going with the PJ, not definite yet, so maybe we can check back with you later to see how it goes for you and us?

 

[vansrv8er]

The whole picture

The whole picture

In my humble opinion, I would look at the entire picture. As far a Saphira, its an Agfa product offered by Heidelberg. This said Agfa WONT offer Heidelberg any support so you will have press mechanics working on this thing. How far away are they when you need them? How quickly can they respond? How many people do they have? Same questions for Agfa and the same questions for Fuji. I believe the support network is more important than the mechanics. With anything mechanical the wheels can and will fall off. The real question is who do you want to help you when this happens? I believe Fuji has the most resources from the pressroom to prepress to the latest in technology.
Again IMHO

 

[SteveAgfa]

vansrv8er:

Perhaps you have had direct experience with Fuji, and less so with Agfa. If you are located in the North American market, you might be surprised to learn that Agfa and Fuji share similar market share. I'll leave details to our annual report. As well, if you looked at quarterly and annual results, again you might be surprised at the performance of Agfa Graphics, vis-a-vis our worthy counterparts. I suggest that the overwhelming posts from satisfied Azura customers point to our ability to support the product in question.

Regards,

 

[has-been]

My how some things never change!
It has been quite a while since I have followed up on this forum but I see that Steve is still at it.
I think it wise to pay close heed to vansrv8er's comments.

Murray Billinghurst
Ind. ConsultantMSN.com

 

[cmitchprint]

vansrv8er:

Perhaps you have had direct experience with Fuji, and less so with Agfa. If you are located in the North American market, you might be surprised to learn that Agfa and Fuji share similar market share. I'll leave details to our annual report. As well, if you looked at quarterly and annual results, again you might be surprised at the performance of Agfa Graphics, vis-a-vis our worthy counterparts. I suggest that the overwhelming posts from satisfied Azura customers point to our ability to support the product in question.

Regards,

I acknowledge that companies can change and many do so quickly and for the better. But our shop is in the N. Alabama area and I haven't seen an AGFA rep since '94, probably because of the multitude of problems we had at that time of image falling off the plates. AGFA never found a solution, never admitted wrongdoing and hung us out to dry on thousands of dollars worth of plates that we stored and rerun, in which we had to remake with Kodak Polychrome. Kodak was replaced with Fuji and that is what we use now. We've, to date, had zero issues with Fuji plates. While I despise Fuji's customer service, they do make a good product.

 

[PKS]

Azura vs LHPJ

Azura vs LHPJ

Another point to consider is a thermal chemistry plate requires water so the processor will need to be plumbed. Water usage is also quite high. The Saphira Chemfree clean out unit does not require water and therefore no plumbing.

On our Suprasetter A52/A75, we run at engine speed with both plates.

On the Suprasetter, the Saphira Chemfree is rated to 250 line hybrid screen whereas our chemistry based Saphira Thermoplate PN and the PJ are rated to 400 line hybrid screen.

And as stated, Chemfree maintenance is a dream compare to conventional processors

Regards,

Mark

The Azura and Saphira Chemfree are the same plate, both manufactured by Agfa. Likewise the Saphira Thermoplate is also manufactured by Agfa. Regarding a comparison to the Fuji LHPJ plate, run length, resolution and press conditions should also be considered such as running with UV.

 

[Yager2007]

Joseph Yager Technical Manager Agfa Graphics

Joseph Yager Technical Manager Agfa Graphics

In regards to effluent waste with Azura TS it is minimal to none. Minimal meaning 1 quart for each 300 - 400 sq. meters of plate material processed. Please note this system requires no water wash. Therefore, your sewer rates also decrease. This system by fare is the most reliable and consistent sytem I have seen in my 31 years of plate manufacturering and technical support.

 

[has-been]

has-been

has-been

I acknowledge that companies can change and many do so quickly and for the better. But our shop is in the N. Alabama area and I haven't seen an AGFA rep since '94, probably because of the multitude of problems we had at that time of image falling off the plates. AGFA never found a solution, never admitted wrongdoing and hung us out to dry on thousands of dollars worth of plates that we stored and rerun, in which we had to remake with Kodak Polychrome. Kodak was replaced with Fuji and that is what we use now. We've, to date, had zero issues with Fuji plates. While I despise Fuji's customer service, they do make a good product.

You talk about remaking plates because of image loss and not getting answers from AGFA
At the same time you mention re-running plates after storage.
If the image loss is after storage, it is most likely "not" a plate problem. This is generally caused from improper treatment of plates before storeage.

Personally I would not store plates for re-runs as I discovered, many moons ago that the down-time, on press, caused by improper storage proceedures cost far more than remaking the plate in the first place.

I am not defending the AGFA product as I technically represented FUJI plates in Canada for 26 years.

If Steve reads this he will probably remember me.

Murray Billinghurst
Ind. Advisor