New Product for Ink Optimization

[Deleted member 16349]

I contacted Chromaticity about a month ago to explore this product. My concern was in the G7 arena and the issues we just discussed. I am going to check out the Chromaticity booth at the show coming up in a few weeks and set up the test. We run quarterly linear tests on our six color presses and qualify any new products at the same time. We can easily incorporate a heads up comparison for this product.

I am expecting to see increased gamut with higher SID's however I am not sure about the ink savings and really am not concerned about that. If this product works, we will use it to gain better control over our process. This should allow for more latitude on press with better color control. We will see if it is as easy as they claim.

On another note, the more I think about the ideology of G7, the more it bothers me.

Here is a paragraph from the Idealliance paper titled "Why should you employ G7; the new proof to print process"
"Because G7 enables printers to use the CTP process to force a press to reproduce visual images with a similar visual appearance, G7 also enables printers to split jobs across printing devices or even across locations. Printing to the NUMBERS with G7 means printers can use different equipment, even in different locations, to print materials that look quite similar to the human eye. Reports indicate jobs split across an old piece of equipment and a new one produce pages that look so much alike that no one can tell which sheet came from which press"

I guess we read too much into this when we signed up for G7. The key is printing to the numbers and G7 is based on ISO numbers. When we run 20% more SID's we are not adhering to the NUMBERS therefore we will not match. Extreme G7 it is. It seems very political to have Extreme G7.

I will keep you all posted.

Todd

G7 actually only claims to provide a match of the gray scale between different devices. They don't claim to match the visual colour of the whole image. Don H states this clearly but for some reason there seems to be the impression that the system will provide a visual match to the image. Don H does not claim that. Take out the gray scale from the image with GCR and what do you have left that G7 claims to help?

This is the issue that concerns me. G7 may be better than adjusting for dot gains of the CMYK curves but G7 can not lead to the goal of predictable colour. The industry wastes time and resources on a direction that will eventually be replaced by better approaches. It delays the effort needed to find and develop those better approaches.

If groups market a concept often enough, people will believe that it must be true. Get the print buyers to insist on it and that just makes it harder to resist. In the end, these kinds of issues will always be determined by the physics of the problem and the market's ultimate judgement.

Of course if you can see the flaw in an approach, it can reduce some frustration knowing that the approach will not be perfect and that if it does not work well, it is not necessarily something you are doing wrong.

 

[kenthekid]

I.c.e.

I.c.e.

On the follow up, we did test the program with a rather radical profile on, get this, a new customer. It ran so well and our pressmen liked it VERY MUCH. It seemed that once the pressman had their "ducks in a row" they loved it! If I have this whole "increased gamut" thing understood, with an increase in running a higher density, it makes sense that this may be the reason. With the profile that was provided us, this came with instructions to increase T.D.I. 5-6% over, like, SWOP. All involved were pleased, as was the findings on exactly how much $ was saved utilizing this product.

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thanks, Ken. It was an interesting thread that you started.

ICE will be shown at Print '09 in the Fine Eye/Chromaticity booth. #4443 in the south hall.
There will be samples galore showing GRACoL vs. GRACoL "on ICE" from the same print provider. The press run for the show is actually happening today at one of our customers.

 

[gordo]

To kenthekid,

Sounds great. Perhaps you could share some specifics?

What are the solid ink density values that you normally run to?
What were the solid ink density values that you ran to when you tested the product? (BTW what do you mean by "T.D.I.?)
How did you determine that you achieved ink savings on this job?
Do you have a coater (e.g. aqueous coater) on the press, or was it just run 4/C?
Was the job supplied to you with embedded cmyk images? And were they reseparated to cmyk by you? Maybe you could elaborate a bit on your workflow?
Was your proofer setup to reflect this new print condition? If so, how was that done?
Have you ever tried running at higher SIDs and simply used compensation curves applied during plate imaging to deal with the increased dot gain?

best, gordon p

 

[gordo]

To kenthekid - any specifics?

To kenthekid,
Sounds great. Perhaps you could share some specifics?
What are the solid ink density values that you normally run to?
What were the solid ink density values that you ran to when you tested the product? (BTW what do you mean by "T.D.I.?)
How did you determine that you achieved ink savings on this job?
Do you have a coater (e.g. aqueous coater) on the press, or was it just run 4/C?
Was the job supplied to you with embedded cmyk images? And were they reseparated to cmyk by you? Maybe you could elaborate a bit on your workflow?
Was your proofer setup to reflect this new print condition? If so, how was that done?
Have you ever tried running at higher SIDs and simply used compensation curves applied during plate imaging to deal with the increased dot gain?

best, gordon p

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thought this may be relevant. Hope to see any and all in Chicago this week and next.
Thanks,
Ian

FineEye Color Solutions and Chromaticity to merge

Chicago, IL. September 10, 2009 - Chromaticity, the leader in distribution and deployment of color management and digital imaging technologies, has signed a memorandum of terms with Silicon Valley software company FineEye Color Solutions, the maker of the ICEserver and ICEmaker software products, to facilitate the merger of the two companies. The combined entity will be called FineEye Color Solutions and will be headquartered in Grand Rapids, MI.

“We are excited about the opportunity to deliver FineEye’s revolutionary new technology, ICE, to the printing industry through our 80+ graphic arts resellers,” says Peder Nelson, now president of the new entity. “The merger with FineEye is the logical conclusion to Chromaticity’s long-term strategy to become a manufacturer. The innovation of FineEye and the ICE technology is a perfect fit for Chromaticity’s expertise in bringing world-class color solutions to market. We look forward to showcasing our exciting product offering and expanded staff at Print ’09 in Chicago where we will debut the new company in booth 4443.”

“Having spent the last two years developing the ICE family of products, we are eager to accelerate our market penetration through Chromaticity’s industry expertise and well established distribution infrastructure,” comments Steve MacDonald, FineEye’s CEO (and former Adobe COO). “This merger will combine some of the finest minds in new thought for color technology and we are as excited about future product development as we are about the dynamic solutions we will showcase at Print ‘09.”

Fine Eye’s ICEserver has been attracting quite a following as the first enabling technology for the new “G7 Extreme” print specification published by the IDEAlliance. ICE – the Intelligent Color Engine – is the core technology in FineEye’s product portfolio that will feature enterprise servers for web and offset lithography, digital and inkjet printing as well as desktop, plug-in and licensable technology for OEMs and Adobe CS users. ICE expands the visual appeal of print while substantially reducing its manufacturing costs – a true “win-win” for both print buyer and print provider.

When asked about the marriage and its affect on Chromaticity’s recently opened inkjet paper factory, Mike DiCosola, vice president of technology, stated, “FineEye brings a core understanding of media and how it affects the print process that is found nowhere else in our industry. The ability to define a media in three-dimensional space to properly map how ink and paper interact was crucial in the initial attraction of the two companies. Chromaticity’s expertise in inkjet media only strengthens this synergy and we look to build upon that shared knowledge to provide more innovative solutions for the graphic arts market.”

 

[edwinb]

I would be interested to here about any results from ice comparisons with other products? any feedback from chicargo Ian?
Edwin

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would be interested to here about any results from ice comparisons with other products? any feedback from chicargo Ian?
Edwin

Edwin -

There is much to report, but I do not want to launch into a commercial for ICE. Here are the bullet points:

1. There are now national magazines on newstands that are "ICEd". We have samples of signatures that are SWOP and then SWOP with ICE. Very cool indded.
2. We have done extensive web testing at RIT with ICE.
3. We did extensive sheet testing at a very high quality printer with an 8C Speedmaster and compared:
a. GRACoL at standard densities
b. GRACoL with adjusted densities to match proof to:
c. GRACoL with ICE at standrad densities to
d. GRACoL with ICE with adjusted densities to match proof
e. GRACoL with ICE with higher densities to increase color gamut and maintain neutrals.

We are also launching a bimonthly webinar series on February 4th that features how to integrate ICE into your workflow and see a 5 month or less payback. We will also discuss G7 extreme - the latest IDEAlliance compliance level as well as how GCR - a 75 y.o. concept - compares to ICE.

FineEye | ICE Webinar

Speaking of Chicago....the IPA Tech Conference is in June. I have heard rumblings of an Ink Optimization Round Up like the old proofing "wars" from a few years ago. It should be cool.

ICE now comes in 2 main flavors:

1. "Standard" to adhere to SWOP, SNAP, GRACoL and Fogra
2. "Expanded" to increase the color gamut and experience even greater ink savings.

There is also a "Custom" version to dial into a specific shop standard.

We provide trails, testing and money-back guarantees.

ICEserver - Optimization without Compromise.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[gordo]

At Print '09, the commercially available ICE product only did RGB to CMYK transforms - not CMYK to CMYK transforms.

Is that still true?

thx, gordon p

 

[Ian Mackenzie]

At Print '09, the commercially available ICE product only did RGB to CMYK transforms - not CMYK to CMYK transforms.

Is that still true?

thx, gordon p

Greetings, Gordo -

Please allow me to enhance your understanding.

ICEserver is,and always has been, a CMYK>CMYK processor.
I am quite surprised that, after spending over an hour with our VP of Technology at Print '09, you have not understood this. PDF in, PDF out. CMYK in, CMYK out.

ICEmaker, a Photshop plug-in, will do RGB>CMYK conversions. This product will formally launched in the next few months.

ICEserver Litho is the only product that we showed at Print '09.
ICEserver will address more vertical print markets in the next few months.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[gordo]

It was your VP of Technology that told me that your ink saver application was RGB->CMYK and not (yet) CMYK->CMYK.

I sit corrected.

gordon p

 

[lubs649]

ice

ice

just tested ice. I most say I'm very impressed with the results.
normal SWOP desities on verious substraights produced great results
Subject matter very critical.
We well continue to test on different presses and locations to make sure the process
continues to work.