Next printer advice please 🙏🏻

[Plansplansplans]

Hi everyone happy new year! I’m looking at upgrading my used xerox c560 with ext fiery

my main reason is I print on 120gsm a4 double sided only, in huge amounts and my paper curl is horrendous with all types of paper. It’s the printer.

what do I go to next? I just want a flat book at the other end same quality no other issues.. not one that looks like an ocean wave

it’s not a humidity issue it’s in my front room at a controlled temp.

I am not under service contract I bought it outright and have a service engineer out frequently for one reason or another

I’m looking at one similar running costs if possible (I buy my own stock parts etc)

I’d be so greatful if anyone can help

thanks!

 

[SteveSuffRIT]

OK, but don't confuse temperature control with humidity control.
Do you have an digital Temp & RH meter in the room?
Does your air %RH ever go below 40%?
What part of country (weather) are you in?
Laser will dry out moisture content from fuser heat.

 

[Plansplansplans]

OK, but don't confuse temperature control with humidity control.
Do you have an digital Temp & RH meter in the room?
Does your air %RH ever go below 40%?
What part of country (weather) are you in?
Laser will dry out moisture content from fuser heat.

Hi Steve
Yes I have a digital meter sitting on it I’m in the U.K. northwest

 

[Plansplansplans]

Hi Steve
Yes I have a digital meter sitting on it I’m in the U.K. northwest

It’s always at around 60% humidity it says comfort on the face, living room (which it’s in) is usually around 19-20 degrees

 

[Craig]

You need a mchine with a decurler after the fuser. This is a set of rollers that adjust the curl direction to flatten out the printed sheet.

 

[Ynot_UK]

Hi

A few thoughts/questions...
First, let's explore this in more depth...

I print on 120gsm a4 double sided only, in huge amounts and my paper curl is horrendous with all types of paper.

• Are you saying various brands of 120GSM paper give problems?
• What results do you get with 80GSM office paper and 160/170GSM card stocks?
• Do you have the same issues with coated and uncoated stocks?
• Do you have the same issue with simplex jobs?
• How/where is your paper stored?
• Do you have the same results with freshly unwrapped reams, as with substrate that's sat in the paper deck for a few days?
• Has your paper stayed at ambient room temperature before use?
• Are the curl issues immediately apparent after printing, or do they worsen when left as printed stacks?
• Does the curl drop out with time?

Not all directly related, some may be, but to set the general scene...

• Give us an idea on what "huge amounts" are in this context
• Are you on a click contract?
• Are the jobs mostly CMYK, B/W, or mixed?
• What is your typical finishing process (binding method/s)

Your 60% RH is toward the higher end of what's generally expected (KM specify 40%-60% to be the optimum)
There are various pre-engine humidifiers, paper tray heaters, post-engine dehumidifiers and de-curling units that you'll find on modern digital presses. I do like the relay unit's anti-curl which can be adjusted on the fly, however it's worth exploring the basics first. Incidentally, on our C4080 it is uncoated 100GSM A3 that comes out the most "rippled" of all stocks. We don't use it often as most colour jobs are on SRA3 coated stocks, so it sits in tray 2 at floor level in an unheated tray, which may not help.

 

[Plansplansplans]

Hi

A few thoughts/questions...
First, let's explore this in more depth...

• Are you saying various brands of 120GSM paper give problems?
• What results do you get with 80GSM office paper and 160/170GSM card stocks?
• Do you have the same issues with coated and uncoated stocks?
• Do you have the same issue with simplex jobs?
• How/where is your paper stored?
• Do you have the same results with freshly unwrapped reams, as with substrate that's sat in the paper deck for a few days?
• Has your paper stayed at ambient room temperature before use?
• Are the curl issues immediately apparent after printing, or do they worsen when left as printed stacks?
• Does the curl drop out with time?

Not all directly related, some may be, but to set the general scene...

• Give us an idea on what "huge amounts" are in this context
• Are you on a click contract?
• Are the jobs mostly CMYK, B/W, or mixed?
• What is your typical finishing process (binding method/s)

Your 60% RH is toward the higher end of what's generally expected (KM specify 40%-60% to be the optimum)
There are various pre-engine humidifiers, paper tray heaters, post-engine dehumidifiers and de-curling units that you'll find on modern digital presses. I do like the relay unit's anti-curl which can be adjusted on the fly, however it's worth exploring the basics first. Incidentally, on our C4080 it is uncoated 100GSM A3 that comes out the most "rippled" of all stocks. We don't use it often as most colour jobs are on SRA3 coated stocks, so it sits in tray 2 at floor level in an unheated tray, which may not help.

Hi

A few thoughts/questions...
First, let's explore this in more depth...

• Are you saying various brands of 120GSM paper give problems?
• What results do you get with 80GSM office paper and 160/170GSM card stocks?
• Do you have the same issues with coated and uncoated stocks?
• Do you have the same issue with simplex jobs?
• How/where is your paper stored?
• Do you have the same results with freshly unwrapped reams, as with substrate that's sat in the paper deck for a few days?
• Has your paper stayed at ambient room temperature before use?
• Are the curl issues immediately apparent after printing, or do they worsen when left as printed stacks?
• Does the curl drop out with time?

Not all directly related, some may be, but to set the general scene...

• Give us an idea on what "huge amounts" are in this context
• Are you on a click contract?
• Are the jobs mostly CMYK, B/W, or mixed?
• What is your typical finishing process (binding method/s)

Your 60% RH is toward the higher end of what's generally expected (KM specify 40%-60% to be the optimum)
There are various pre-engine humidifiers, paper tray heaters, post-engine dehumidifiers and de-curling units that you'll find on modern digital presses. I do like the relay unit's anti-curl which can be adjusted on the fly, however it's worth exploring the basics first. Incidentally, on our C4080 it is uncoated 100GSM A3 that comes out the most "rippled" of all stocks. We don't use it often as most colour jobs are on SRA3 coated stocks, so it sits in tray 2 at floor level in an unheated tray, which may not help.

Hi thanks for your reply!
I’ve used all different brands of 120gsm I only use uncoated and print full colour but a washed out effect at the design end so it’s a light full colour like pastel

I’ve not tried any lighter weight paper as I need it 120 but I have ordered a 100gsm off Amazon to test that theory it arrives tomorrow!

paper is stored in boxes of 1000 stacked in my hallway near the entrance to living room half a meter from printer

curl gets much worse the longer it’s left after printing. I’ve tried storing in boxes straight after but as soon as they come out they seem to start curling again

printing 2k sheets double sided daily so fresh boxes always open twice daily

no click contract

cmyk

I then use electric guillotine in stacks of 500 and they go through a auto punch machine

thanks again Andrea

 

[Ynot_UK]

I've just seen your original post from 2020 where you indicate after Covid lockdown you relocated your equipment to your home.

Were you experiencing curling problems before this, when presumably your equipment was located in an office/production space?
I would imagine most home living rooms/conservatories to be less than ideal environments for production printing, given the typical fluctuations in temperature and humidity, cooking, dust, etc.

 

[Plansplansplans]

I've just seen your original post from 2020 where you indicate after Covid lockdown you relocated your equipment to your home.

Were you experiencing curling problems before this, when presumably your equipment was located in an office/production space?
I would imagine most home living rooms/conservatories to be less than ideal environments for production printing, given the typical fluctuations in temperature and humidity, cooking, dust, etc.

I had not long had the printer before relocation so I can’t recall any issues there but when it was moved I had it in conservatory and it died a death! Had to get a replacement of same printer and move it into lounge - I’ve just ordered a large dehumidifier to have in lounge to see if this helps any! Thanks Andrea

 

[kslight]

If it gets progressively worse the longer it sits I have to believe it’s more an environmental issue than a machine issue. Of course, you want a machine that has a decurler so you can make your prints come out flat, I’m not familiar with that model but I assume anything geared for production would. Also, being conscious of how you load the paper - seam side up vs down can have drastic effects, as well as running on the appropriate paper weight setting for the material. 60% humidity seems awfully high for a print room, and many hygrometers are not accurate so you may want to double check. Many printers have one built in, if you dig into the settings you may find what the printer believes the current humidity is.

 

[jwheeler]

You need a mchine with a decurler after the fuser. This is a set of rollers that adjust the curl direction to flatten out the printed sheet.

Another vote for a decurling unit. I used to sell production gear for KM and I wouldn't sell a unit without a decurler if I could help it. KM offers internal humidifiers and dehumidifiers, and I never sold a single one in 5 years of working there. Of course humidity plays a role, but this situation can be quickly solved with a decurling unit. Just about every production level digital press offers this option now (unfortunately your C560 is more of an entry unit so I don't think you can add a decurler).

In the meantime, you could try rotating your paper 90 degrees so they paper grain works in your favor a bit more. I realize that will slow down the speed a bit, but you may see some improvement.

 

[printing4me]

I echo what some others have said. You need to step up to a machine that is more in the realm of light production or production that has curl control. With my Canon C700 I never really even have to worry about curl. The only time I notice it is when I have told the machine the wrong paper I am running. The factory presets seem to produce a flat sheet on any stock that is similar on both sides. Coated one side would have a little more issue than others. With my older Xerox it was a constant problem. My guess is that that machine is older and the fuser temp is high and heating the snot out of the sheet.

 

[Plansplansplans]

So after writing replies and reading your helpful responses I agree it’s my humidity - I’ve purchased 2 large dehumidify units (one for lounge one for conservatory where I cut and bind) and set at 55% may move down to 50% it’s the first day running them today so I will update on the progress later when I start printing - I’ve also ordered fresh paper in as I have a feeling my stocks of paper will have suffered.

thanks so much for all the help

I still feel my machine needs an upgrade but my service engineer doesn’t think there’s anything comparable for running costs he is xerox specialist tho so may have favouritism haha and the machine is all paid for outright.

it’s a tough one!

 

[Plansplansplans]

Another vote for a decurling unit. I used to sell production gear for KM and I wouldn't sell a unit without a decurler if I could help it. KM offers internal humidifiers and dehumidifiers, and I never sold a single one in 5 years of working there. Of course humidity plays a role, but this situation can be quickly solved with a decurling unit. Just about every production level digital press offers this option now (unfortunately your C560 is more of an entry unit so I don't think you can add a decurler).

In the meantime, you could try rotating your paper 90 degrees so they paper grain works in your favor a bit more. I realize that will slow down the speed a bit, but you may see some improvement.

Thank-you I’m trying this method today along with the dehumidifiers running at 55% and will continue to research some upgrades if printers everyone says KM is the way to go

 

[Craig]

Make sure you keep the paper in the dehumidified environment for a few days before printing. Also if you can keep the ream wrappers on and closed as they protect the paper as well.

There is not perfect printer manufacture. You need to look at service even more so than the price. We are switching from Xerox to Ricoh because of value and improved quality. Service is going to be about the same.

 

[Plansplansplans]

Make sure you keep the paper in the dehumidified environment for a few days before printing. Also if you can keep the ream wrappers on and closed as they protect the paper as well.

There is not perfect printer manufacture. You need to look at service even more so than the price. We are switching from Xerox to Ricoh because of value and improved quality. Service is going to be about the same.

Thanks Craig

I didn’t realise so glad you said it I would of gone off todays results lol (pretty much same mild very mild improvement… nothing to throw a party about.
My paper comes unwrapped in boxes of cut a4 1000 sheets - another delivery arrives tomorrow of fresh stuff …

 

[Plansplansplans]

Also an update on the sealed bought from Amazon 100gsm copier paper - came out twice as bad as my 120gsm which is bizarre

 

[Ynot_UK]

Our print room humidity varies widely from low 30s to low 60s, depending on the environmentals (today it is 37%).

Andrea, I recommend you set your dehumidifiers' target to lower than 55% (the difference between that and the 60% you have been monitoring is so negligible, your results won't give any noticeable difference. I'd go for 40% for starters, that is a big enough difference in operating conditions for you to see if you're barking up the right tree.

We had a situation a few months back where we believed high RH% was causing tinted 80GSM stocks to jam on the B/W press. To the point we were running the air conditioning all day to pull the RH% down. However we were barking up the wrong tree and the issue was transfer belt charge voltage. A new transfer belt and several hundred thousand prints later with just the very occasional jam. The only good by-product being better housekeeping - we now keep all part reams of tinted stocks in air tight plastic storage trays with silica gel packs! I mention this as it is easy to follow the wrong scent.

You mentioned you're not on a click contract, therefore I assume you're buying consumables and paying for engineer service as and when required. What does this look like in terms of a 'notional CPC' with everything (bar substrates and power) thrown in ? I'm very interested, as am sure are others on here. since you mention how low your running costs are, yet can't envisage how we could ever make a non-CPC situation work!